MOD Programs: The Official HTF "Pros & Cons" Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

[Nebiroth]

I'm in full agreement with you. There is no technical reason as to why MOD releases should be inferior. It rather seems that in some cases, there is simply a lack of investment.


I am guessing that this is because the enthusiasm of the sort of customer that is buying these is such, that the titles are selling profitably regardless of their relative quality.


It seems to be a rather hit-and-miss affair. Some are excellent, others are not. My conclusion is that not much work is being done on the titles, and the quality is almost entirely reliant on how good the available print happens to be. Some archive material is, of course, in much better condition than others.


It is precisely the attitude that lead to the lacklustre first and second waves of Star Trek DVD releases. They knew that the customers would buy them no matter what.


They only cleaned them up properly when it became evident this was necessary to sell the show for HD broadcast.

 

[Nebiroth]

Originally Posted by JeffMc

I think they should at least take the more popular MOD titles and package them together in pressed disc sets of 5 or 6 films for $20 or so, like Sony does with its Icons collections.

[/QUOTE]

Considering Sony has now entered MOD in full-force, I doubt we'll see any more pressed Icons sets. I foresee CREATURES THE WORLD FORGOT and the other Hammers will now end up in their MOD program. Eventually, people will just have to accept, like it or not, that MOD is here to stay and the days of pressed DVD's of these older films by the studios are over. And constantly complaining about pricing is getting a bit old as all you have to do is wait for a sale. Warners just had a huge sale where you could get single-discs (including all the remastered ones) for $8 a piece if you bought 10 and also used the coupon code. And if there weren't 10 titles you were interested in out of the 800 they have for sale, I guess you're not much of a fan of these films. I just bought 30 discs and am more excited about receiving all of these titles more than I would ever care about a Blu-Ray of DR. STRANGELOVE.

I also agree with Bob. I'm not being pulled in three directions. I'm pretty much only buying MOD these days, with a few exceptions from some of the indie labels that are still hanging in there. I don't care about Blu-Ray. I have the movies I like and I don't need to upgrade anything and none of these obscure studio classics that haven't been released before will ever be on Blu anyway. I have most everything I want of the classics already released on pressed DVD. These MOD programs are a Godsend - 1,000 rare movies available in just over a year. Keep 'em coming!


So the price structure is fine because you can reduce the titles to a semi-reasonable state that actually relates to the quality of the product by waiting for a sale which requires the customer to spend $100 in one go and using a discount coupon? I think not. Not to mention that this option is denied international buyers.


I also find the statement about "not being much of a fan" ridiculous. Some people have a very narrow range of movie interests. I'm a massive movie fan (of certain genres), but I'd be hard-pressed to find that many titles that would justify their price in the Archive.


The MOD programs are a "Godsend" only if you're so anxious to get that "must have" movie you're not too bothered about how it looks - and you've got deep pockets.


I have to admit, this MOD stuff is a smart move by the studios - they have managed to tap right into the "I just gotta have it!" collector core, who will also happily pay over the odds for some OOP disc on Ebay.


I fully expect to see virtually everything except the current crop of blockbusters quietly shuffled off to MOD. Why wouldn't they? What business would keep on putting out boxsets when they can sell movies individually at 20 bucks a go?

 

[JeffMc]

I hardly have deep pockets. I'm just a huge movie fan and most of these films would never receive a pressed DVD release. Yes, I want them and I do feel the price is reasonable so that I can own all these rare films before I die. You can dream on all you want that if you wait long enough, a pressed DVD will magically appear.

People spent $20 on seeing AVATAR in the theater and I was even dragged along to that. I felt ripped off as I hated the film to high heaven - others went back time after time and spent their money on it because they thought it was worth it. I feel spending $8, or even $20 on some of these Archive films, is definitely worth my money. I know what this product is and I am NOT being ripped off by it. I feel it is worth it, just like all those AVATR fans thoughht spending $20 to go see a 3-hour cartoon was worth it. Use your money where you want to. If you don't like the product or the price, go buy something else. it's a free market.

 

[Bob Cashill]

I do wish our non-USA friends could see some of these discs for themselves. I haven't seen a WA title beginning with the Turner logo in a year. They may of course be out there, but not on the discs I've bought since January. And the DVD Beaver reviews of most of these titles are positive. Are there duds? Sure, but they've declined in number--and there are dud Blu-rays, too.


"If they're going to insist on these prices, though, I think they should at least take the more popular MOD titles and package them together in pressed disc sets of 5 or 6 films for $20 or so, like Sony does with its Icons collections"--There was talk of issuing some on pressed DVD, but almost two years in and with WB (mostly) concentrating on issuing new movies on DVD and Blu (and marketing them far more aggressively on Blu) I can't see that happening. It would be interesting to see how they would sell.

I can't foresee any more Icons, either, or box sets of any kind from the studios that have gone MOD though I hope Sony works out the kinks in its program. Ah, what a time it was. But I've moved on.

 

[Colin McGuigan]

Originally Posted by JeffMc

I'm just a huge movie fan and most of these films would never receive a pressed DVD release.

In some ways, this comment is indicative of the MOD programs' greatest success. Somehow this mantra that the movies included would never see the light of day otherwise has come to be accepted as a fact, an unshakeable truth set in stone and absolutely undeniable. However, the fact that a fair number of titles are available in other regions (not all of course, and not always the best of transfers either) on pressed disc and on general release speaks volumes. Remember that we're talking about significantly smaller markets of potential buyers than is the case in the US too. These overseas companies are not operating as charities; they're businesses looking to turn a profit. If they were unable to shift enough copies of titles to guarantee a return on their investment then it's certain that the releases would dry up pretty quick. The thing is the majors in the US have hit on a way to maximise their profits in the short term and are now milking it for all it's worth. However, I can't help feeling this is very much a short term strategy. By restricting availability of titles to a small, dedicated fan base they are ensuring that the films themselves will get minimum exposure. This shrinking, exclusive audience is by definition limited and thus the chances of any of these movies being seen by a wider group at a point in the future is necessarily lessened. It's actually a very depressing thought.

 

[Nebiroth]

It's not the "pressed disc" that troubles me particularly, although I do have reservations about the longevity of burnt discs.


What really bothers me is the way that the price got jacked up by 200-400% for something that is in many cases an inferior product. It is quite evident that at least some of these films are getting the Alpha Video treatment yet they're priced like Criterions.


There is no firm evidence to suggest that these films would never get released if there was no MOD - aside from the assertions of the studios (who, after all, have a vested interest in selling the things and are hardly going to say "well, otherwise, we'd be putting these out in boxsets for half the price")


Although it is certainly true that the future is almost exclusively going to be MOD because the discs are selling well - as I've said before, no corporation is going to turn down the opportunity to sell a minimal investment product at a premium price.


If the MOD model were to be exported to almost any other area of business, consumers would be screaming about it.


Would you welcome the idea of (say) suddenly being able to buy only Ford cars, from a store run by Ford but nowhere else, where the prices doubled overnight but you got way less mileage from fuel.


I doubt very much that people would be saying "hey, be grateful you can still buy cars"

Originally Posted by JeffMc

I hardly have deep pockets. I'm just a huge movie fan and most of these films would never receive a pressed DVD release. Yes, I want them and I do feel the price is reasonable so that I can own all these rare films before I die. You can dream on all you want that if you wait long enough, a pressed DVD will magically appear

 

[Bob Cashill]

"It is quite evident that at least some of these films are getting the Alpha Video treatment yet they're priced like Criterions"--A pinprick, Richard, not really even "some" given the total number available, but it's difficult to quantify this, or to engage with members who have no access to them. And I've never seen one as bad as an Alpha disc, not even THE BIG HOUSE.

"By restricting availability of titles to a small, dedicated fan base they are ensuring that the films themselves will get minimum exposure. This shrinking, exclusive audience is by definition limited and thus the chances of any of these movies being seen by a wider group at a point in the future is necessarily lessened. It's actually a very depressing thought"--At what point in the future is someone other than an ardent collector going to get interested in these films? If we waited for that rapture to happen they'd never get released at all in any format. How is that a less depressing thought? But we've had this dialogue before.

 

[JeffMc]

Originally Posted by Livius

I'm just a huge movie fan and most of these films would never receive a pressed DVD release.

In some ways, this comment is indicative of the MOD programs' greatest success. Somehow this mantra that the movies included would never see the light of day otherwise has come to be accepted as a fact, an unshakeable truth set in stone and absolutely undeniable. However, the fact that a fair number of titles are available in other regions (not all of course, and not always the best of transfers either) on pressed disc and on general release speaks volumes. Remember that we're talking about significantly smaller markets of potential buyers than is the case in the US too. These overseas companies are not operating as charities; they're businesses looking to turn a profit. If they were unable to shift enough copies of titles to guarantee a return on their investment then it's certain that the releases would dry up pretty quick. The thing is the majors in the US have hit on a way to maximise their profits in the short term and are now milking it for all it's worth. However, I can't help feeling this is very much a short term strategy. By restricting availability of titles to a small, dedicated fan base they are ensuring that the films themselves will get minimum exposure. This shrinking, exclusive audience is by definition limited and thus the chances of any of these movies being seen by a wider group at a point in the future is necessarily lessened. It's actually a very depressing thought.
[/QUOTE]


My comment about "never would be released on pressed disc" should have been worded differently. I wasn't saying that none of these titles would ever have seen a pressed DVD release, but that the sheer volume that MOD has allowed compared to the rate pressed discs means a huge number of films are being released NOW instead of possibly decades away, if ever. MOD has opened the floodgates for more films to be released in 1 year than would have probably taken at least 10 via the old rate. And that will contiinue this year as well. I may be dead in 10 years so I'm happy to get the films now, and every MOD I have purchased looks great. And I've heard your baffling argument before - how can making available 800 obscure films that have been unavailable for decades somehow be restricting their audience and giving them minimal exposure. If you're talking retail, last time I checked, there were no more Tower and Virgin stores, and Best Buy certainly doesn't carry these. All the websites now carry these obscure titles, though - seems like they're pretty easy to find. So is making them available on Amazon "restricting their audience"??? If you think the pricing is restricting people from seeing these films, guess again. A film that hasn't been shown in 50 years can now be purchased on disc for $8. How is that more restricting than leaving it in the vault?

The Ford analogy is hilarious and I'm not even going to go there. I'm done in this thread. I'm only checking the Film Announcement one from now on. It's been the same whiners on these boards for over a year and it's like a broken record. I've never seen people who so passionately despise a product that they will spend so much energy b*tching about it instead of just not buying it and moving on. Makes no sense. Don't like it. Don't buy it.

Thanks MOD - in fact, I'll be the first to say I'm glad pressed DVD is basically dead. That means a lot more films will be available now, a lot quicker, and I can just enjoy the films themselves, something some of us have forgotten how to do. Over and out!

 

[Nebiroth]

Thanks MOD - in fact, I'll be the first to say I'm glad pressed DVD is basically dead. That means a lot more films will be available now, a lot quicker, and I can just enjoy the films themselves, something some of us have forgotten how to do. Over and out!

In other words, you're happy because you can afford your instant gratification.


Too bad about the people who will be locked out by the high prices or restricted availability (just two ways that the audience for these films gets shrunk).


Look, I think that seeing loads of films released is great too. But I hold the view that the way the price has been jacked up for no reason I can think of other than it can be because there are fans who are so anxious to get hold of the movies they'll pay almost anything, sucks.


This sort of monopolisation and absolute control is never good for the consumer. As we have seen, the first thing it leads to is high prices because there's nowhere else to go. The studios have us by the 'nads and they know it.

 

[Thomas T]

"It's been the same whiners on these boards for over a year and it's like a broken record. I've never seen people who so passionately despise a product that they will spend so much energy b*tching about it instead of just not buying it and moving on. Makes no sense."


Which is why a thread like this became absolutely necessary! A place where the "disease" could be quarantined and stop infecting other threads where people just wanted to talke about what MOD titles were being released, how the transfers looked, which ones had trailers, what was coming soon etc. They have, of course, EVERY right to shake their fists at the sky but at this stage of the game, the only ones listening are the choir.


But it will continue because, well ..... they can.

 

[Richard M S]

This is just my guess, but a pressed dvd release of THE ADVENTURES OF MARK TWAIN would have definitely sold many more copies than what was sold in the Warner Archive if it was positioned near the first volume of his posthumous autobiography; the coverage Mark Twain has received has exceeded many living authors. It is a very entertaining film!


I have no objection to MOD programs - most Kay Francis titles would never see the light of day otherwise for example - but that being said most of the studios with big holdings have all but given up on releasing pressed DVDs of classic titles which is just to bad.

 

[mdnitoil]

Actually, the language is very indicitive of where our society is at these days. I've got mine and the rest of you can go pound sand.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

I am warning everyone to cool themselves down immediately.


Any continued verbal attacks on each other is going to result

in someone possibly being removed from here.


I expect this tone of conversation will cease at once. Thank You.

 

[battlebeast]

Originally Posted by jdee28

Once you buy them, do you treat the MOD discs differently than the pressed discs you buy?


I know I do. I'm less inclined to hold onto a MOD disc after viewing it, especially if the picture quality is subpar.

I think they are more suited as rentals than collectibles/ keepsakes.

I collect all the Best Picture nominees, and ANY Archive title goes in it's assigned alphabetically-by-year slot on my shelf. So The Hollywood Revue of 1929 sits right next to In Old ArizonaI. I treat my MOD's NO DIFFERENT than a pressed DVD.


So what should I do??? NOT get those MOD Titles I need for my collection, and wait and prey Warners releases them on Pressed? How long should I wait???


I'm damn lucky to be able to have these on Studio Authorized DVD, so I am going to take advantage of it.


For all of you who loath the archive, fine, don't buy the movies you want in protest. It's your loss.You are a fan of the movies, want to see these films, but won't support the archive that has, so kindly, allowed the public to see these films again.


The Archive makes these films more obscure??? How??? If i know of a rare, rare title and it is released by the archive and someone, joe ordinary, surfs the archive collection and notices the film, then someone has LEARNED of it! The more people who know of a title, the LESS obscure it becomes. Simple as that.



I'll say it again: We are darned lucky Warner is even releasing these titles AT ALL, so I would encourage you all to stop complaining... (and yes, I agree the prices are high.)

 

[battlebeast]

Originally Posted by Bob Cashill

"It is quite evident that at least some of these films are getting the Alpha Video treatment yet they're priced like Criterions"--A pinprick, Richard, not really even "some" given the total number available, but it's difficult to quantify this, or to engage with members who have no access to them. And I've never seen one as bad as an Alpha disc, not even THE BIG HOUSE.

"By restricting availability of titles to a small, dedicated fan base they are ensuring that the films themselves will get minimum exposure. This shrinking, exclusive audience is by definition limited and thus the chances of any of these movies being seen by a wider group at a point in the future is necessarily lessened. It's actually a very depressing thought"--At what point in the future is someone other than an ardent collector going to get interested in these films? If we waited for that rapture to happen they'd never get released at all in any format. How is that a less depressing thought? But we've had this dialogue before.

 

[mdnitoil]

Originally Posted by battlebeast

Once you buy them, do you treat the MOD discs differently than the pressed discs you buy?


I know I do. I'm less inclined to hold onto a MOD disc after viewing it, especially if the picture quality is subpar.

I think they are more suited as rentals than collectibles/ keepsakes.

I collect all the Best Picture nominees, and ANY Archive title goes in it's assigned alphabetically-by-year slot on my shelf. So The Hollywood Revue of 1929 sits right next to In Old ArizonaI. I treat my MOD's NO DIFFERENT than a pressed DVD.


So what should I do??? NOT get those MOD Titles I need for my collection, and wait and prey Warners releases them on Pressed? How long should I wait???


I'm damn lucky to be able to have these on Studio Authorized DVD, so I am going to take advantage of it.


For all of you who loath the archive, fine, don't buy the movies you want in protest. It's your loss.You are a fan of the movies, want to see these films, but won't support the archive that has, so kindly, allowed the public to see these films again.


The Archive makes these films more obscure??? How??? If i know of a rare, rare title and it is released by the archive and someone, joe ordinary, surfs the archive collection and notices the film, then someone has LEARNED of it! The more people who know of a title, the LESS obscure it becomes. Simple as that.



I'll say it again: We are darned lucky Warner is even releasing these titles AT ALL, so I would encourage you all to stop complaining... (and yes, I agree the prices are high.)

[/QUOTE]

For what it's worth, I took the original question as more along the lines of whether I handled the discs any differently. In that light, I know I sure do. For the few I have, the first thing I do is an ISO rip and store it on my computer for archival reasons. After that, I make sure I physically handle them with kid's gloves because the darn things can be so touchy. With regards to shelving, a movie is a movie is a movie. They all get mixed in alphabetically. I've never really understood the concept of segregating with regards to media. Whenever I try that, I can't find what I'm looking for because I now have to search in a number of different places.


Beyond that, I hardly feel "lucky" that Warner is doing us this great favor. I'm paying a hefty fee for the honor of owning this stuff, so any sense of gratitude quickly becomes muted by the suspicion that I'm getting played.

 

[MichaelEl]

Originally Posted by JeffMc

I think they should at least take the more popular MOD titles and package them together in pressed disc sets of 5 or 6 films for $20 or so, like Sony does with its Icons collections.

[/QUOTE]

Warners just had a huge sale where you could get single-discs (including all the remastered ones) for $8 a piece with free shipping if you bought 10 and also used the coupon code. And if there weren't 10 titles you were interested in out of the 800 they have for sale, I guess you're not much of a fan of these films.

It's very difficult to keep up with coupon codes that keep changing from day to day. Sony and MGM haven't put out any codes as yet anyway. It's also difficult to keep up with one-day sales when you're on a limited budget.

Actually, the real problem with these discs isn't the list price, at least it wouldn't be if were just dropped a couple of bucks to $17.99 or so. The real problem is the combination of tax and shipping, which jacks the $19.99 list up to $26 or more. If I were running these programs, I would end the annoying coupon codes, drop the list price to $17.99, and offer free shipping on all purchases of two titles or more. I have no doubt Warner would generate a lot more sales with that model than they do currently. As it is now, people order a single disc, get to checkout and see $26+ staring them in the face, which undoubtedly turns away a lot of customers. They're thinking "Gee, I'd really like to revisit that Tarzan movie I saw when I was a kid, but $26 for a DVD-R??? You've got to be kidding me!"

 

[shoeshineboy]

The cheeses behind Warners Archive have listened to the 'whiners' apparently, and none of you MOD fans seem to appreciate it.

When it first was launched, there were no coupons, no price breaks. They started offering restrictive bundles, then more coupons, now larger sales.

Naturally they aren't adverse to selling more stock.

They've also made some effort to find better prints, even 'restoring' (to a minor degree) some titles. Of course you have to pay a little more - just as we pay (lots) more for Criterion treatment, but with Criterion you get it done as brilliant as possible, with bells and whistles.

Yes, I concede that the MOD model has some appeal and if i hadn't already been exposed to many and many terrific pressed discs, handled and treated by the companies like the art work it is, I may just be leading the cheer like some of you... But I can't. My interest in film doesn't start and end with my own consumption -- I want to make sure that there's care and preservation happening with these valuable and delicate pieces of nitrate. WA isn't Alpha; however, Warners holds the keys, keeps the reels and has the wherewithal to decide what comes out and in what state.

Nearly 90 per cent of WA is being given the quick rush... We can all admit the days of nice extras are virtually gone except for a small fraction of releases. But why is quality no more an issue when it comes to the movies themselves?


Above, someone quoted dvdbeaver regarding how positively they've reviewed many WA. emailed Gary Tooze a month ago noting that I felt the reviews for WA films was being graded on a different scale -- based on screen captures they post and comment on (good and bad); Here is my email:


Hi, longtime reader -- thanks for providing as comprehensive a review website for dvds as there is online!
I am wondering, however, if the warner archives are being treated gingerly; i read 3 reviews tonight - the Sellout, Lady without a passport, and Stranger on the 3rd floor - and saw screen shots that each showed a lot of wear from the screen captures. They all lacked sharpness and were generally dull -- i've seen enough reviews and screencaps on your site to know that you get the best and offer as much to show flaws and contrasts. However, there were few if any pics that displayed anything remotely what Warners had offered with its past classic releases prior to the archives. You even describe 'Stranger on the 3rd Floor' "restoration is excellent" - fine praise indeed. I rarely come across an old classic that ranks a top rating unless its done by Criterion. But you see much more dvd options and have all the knowhow to weigh these things.
Am I being too tough on the dvd-r archive efforts and products, or have you eased up on your criticism? I may be inclined to say that the screen caps were 'excellent' if the same product was coming from Image (Thriller's video has inconsistencies for a 1950s-60s TV show but it could rank near-excellent, video wise) and not the original studio with the original material at hand.

well thanks for hearing me out.

D.


Tooze's response was "You are correct. The material that was in better condition was used for the commercial releases earlier... although Warner are doing some minor restorations now but some of the vault stuff is of lesser quality than the first few waves of Noir Boxsets etc.."

I think WA was a reaction to the economy, where suddenly the percentage of the market of 'blindbuys' suffered the first big hit. That includes people who bought at release sales price and the later, bargain sales price. With that demographic reduced by the economic reality, Warners decided that it would cut its losses, accept fewer sales while eliminating warehousing and multiple distribution deals through MOD. They counted on the hard-core collectors to come; when the #s were encouraging but not what they hoped, they've tried to attract some of blind-buyers back.

Those of us who are more concerned about quality -- and sorry, but there is no evidence that shows me the dvd-rs are the equal of pressed discs, so that is going to be part of the discussion -- will continue to moan and feel burned. But certainly most of us are willing to listen to other opinions, to hear about positive reviews, and hope that some of our concerns will be addressed in the future.


And thanks Mr Epstein for keeping us on the straight and narrow. Sometimes emotions do get the better of us.

 

[Grant100]

These sales and deals are OK for US residents but the rest of us have no access to them and end up buying from other sites as inflated prices. I have 7 MOD films at the moment with another one on the way. I would have bought many more at reduced prices. What happened to rolling it out internationally?

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Gents,


The question concerning MOD not being available outside

of the United States seems to be the biggest concern about

this program that I have seen repeatedly brought up.


Give me a few days to contact the studio and get an answer

on this.


I cannot guarantee you a response but I think I can get a

definitive status for all of you regarding your concerns.


Stay Tuned!