Missing Musicals (1 Viewer)

[Peter Kline]

I'd like to see a restored version of Gene Kelly's "Invitation To The Dance". Not a success when released nor one of his best but interesting nevertheless

 

[RobertSiegel]

I'd also like to see a decent version of EVITA similar to what Criterion released. There was also a DTS laserdisc. There's also a musical from the 80's which starred Rex Smith called HEADING FOR BROADWAY, which, while it bombed, I actually liked, never a video release of this one. It was on HBO in the 80's, but that tape is in very bad shape. Finally, it would be great to have remastered SUPERBIT Funny Girl and Oliver. It's a shame that Columbia isn't doing many musicals in Superbit. Neither are the studios releasing DVHS movies that are musicals (or for that matter classics. The only one I have seen is Butch Cassidy...wouldn't THE SOUND OF MUSIC sell well on DVHS? C'mon Fox.

I would also like to see special editions of movies like Guys and Dolls, Oliver, and some of those very early dvd musical releases. And I'd LOVE to own MAME with Lucy. While this is my favorite broadway score, I hated Lucy in the movie and felt they ruined a grand musical, but there are some songs without her that are incredible (title theme number) and the orchestrations are worth owning, they are great. I just wish they would use the original studio stereo tracks and finally make the film stereo.

 

[Drew Salzan]

I think that the 5.1 soundtrack was created from a variety of sources. It is well known that MGM saved a great deal of their recordings (stems, angles, multi- track session and effects tracks), so a viable 5.1 mix could be made. If you listen closely, the sound mix is more than merely an enhancement. If you're a soundtrack enthusiast, Rhino has a wealth of MGM titles with many of the tracks remixed in real stereo from the rare original elements. I don't know if the original sound mix for Auntie Mame was 4 track, but since the DVD had a separate music track option, it's possible they remixed the HD version from the composite mono master and the existing music-only tracks.

It would be great if they utilized all that's available to create new sountracks (originally released in mono) for the upcoming releases like they did for High Society (originally Perspecta Sound).

 

[Joe Caps]

First, the Auntie Mame does not have clean music tracks on the dvd but a music and effects track.
Paramount has done several succesful stereo mixes using the stereo music tracks mixed in with the clean dialogue and effects tracks. Many studios master sound tracks for mono films from the mid fifties on are tthree track mono mags - one track for dialogue, one for sound effects and one for mono music.
Warner does not have these. Most of their masters are one channel mixed masters for the films which makes it tough to remix.
Auntie Mame was certainly in four track stereo in theaters and indeed, in Los angeles, there are two collectors with stereo prints who refuse to come forward tolet Warners borrow their prints to retrive the stereo sound.
This is exactly how these lost stereo films are found - by chance.
Sayonara (Warner film now distributed by Goldwyn) is in stereo on dvd from the ony remainging stereo print loaned by a collector. The stereo track from Spirit of St. Louis was found in some army depot in sweden. It had been in cold storage and had not been run hardly at all. I think the print used had swedish subtitles. But the print had very skips or jumps and was in great shape - perfect for duping the sound to a digital master.

The really tough things to find are missing stereo films from around 1953. These films did not have stereo sound on the film print but on a separate interlocked film running in sync with the main film. But the private collectors do not have the equipment to run these so most of these stereo prints were not kept.
It seemed a few years ago, there was a possibility of retrieveing some of these films. An old time projectionist had kept a bunh of these films in a private collection.
Through an intermediary, he was contacted and let Warners borrow one of his interlocked stereo tracks - House of Wax. That track is on the new dvds. If all went well and he was not hassled by the studio, he was going to let the studio borrow more.
Time passed and the man passed away. His wife did not kow what the stuff was (didn't look likle film to here as it had no picture on it) and the stuff was junked.
This is sad, because there were several key titles in this collection - two from Columbia - Miss Sadie Thimpson and From Here to eternity.
The big one got away - the stereo track to the Doris day musical, Calamity Jane. I remember seeing this film in small reissues in stero in upstate New York as late as 1968.
There are several key stereo sound on film missing and are only with private collectors - Auntie Mame, A Time to love and a time to Die, Damn Yankees, The Big Country and quite a few more.
Once in a while, luck comes along. As of 1990. most of the Warners 1950s scope films were considered lost. A film researcher was a hugh fan of James Dean films and was dissatisfied with the remaining Warner color print sof Rebel without a cause and east of eden. He was allowed access to archives at library of congress. He wanted to see if they had early Technicolor prints of those films.
the cans were pulled and when he opened them, the film loked brown, meaning it had the stereo tracks coated on it!! He started checking for other Warner films and found almost allof the early warner scope films in stereo!!. Sitting there was Lucky Me, King Richard and the crusaders, The Silver Chalice and at least twenty more.
What happened is that in the fifties, the local Warner film distributor was instruced that when a Warner film ended its theatrical run, he was to ditribute three copies of each Warner film in Library of congress. The man must have loved stero because he depositied three stereo copies of each Warner release. This meant the copies could be mixed and matched for stereo duping for video masters.
Over the next few years, this was done. All of the stereo sound you hear from these fiilms, first on laser and now dvd are from these prints.
Most of this work was done at chace Productions who became expert at transferring stereo sound from prints and making them sound new.
Two examples - check out the dvds of the Judy Garland Star is Born and the Robert Wise film Helen of Troy. They sound like perfectly preserved stereo studio masters. Their not. they are off of these prints!
Chace has recently finished work retrieveing the stereo sound from prints of High and the Mighty.
The Warner distributor only deposted prints through 1955. Anything later than that was sent over to the library in mono, so warners did not have stereo prints of sayonara, Spirit of St. Louis, Giant, Auntie Mame, etc.
When prints of Sayonara and Spirit of St. Louis was obtained from collectors, there were some surprises.
Both films have music by the same composer, Frank Waxman, Both were recorded and mixed at Warner by the same sound crew. The two films are totally different.
Sayonara had three channels behind the screenand no surrounds. The dialouge is pretty much centered and almost all of the sound effects are in the center. Ony the music is stereo.
Spirit of St.louis, from the same year (1957) is completely the oppisite - full stereo, steroe dialogue, stereo sound effects and some surrounds.

 

[RobertSiegel]

Joe Caps-thank you for that story. It was fascinating. At the same time, it made me very mad to learn that 2 collectors would have in their posession stereo prints of AUNTIE MAME,DAMN YANKEES and be so selfish they would not allow them to be used? What's with that? Do they want a ton of money to loan them or just selfish? In any case, it's a crying shame!

 

[Brian Kidd]

Sadly, a lot of film collectors are so obsessive about their stuff that they would rather let them rot away in a closet than let the studios borrow them to utilize. Some are afraid, not always unjustly, that the studios won't return the films when they are finished. Others are just obsessive-compulsive and won't let anyone touch their prints. Truth be told, it's not strictly legal to own these prints in the first place, as they were supposed to have either been destroyed or sent back to the studio upon completion of their theatrical run. I guess some folks are afraid of prosecution. There are lots of reasons why collectors often don't share. The problem is that, as Joe said, often the only extant prints of some films are in the hands of collectors who are unwilling to share them. I heard a couple of years ago that there is, indeed, a print of LONDON AFTER MIDNIGHT out there but that the collector wanted so much money for it that Universal refused to buy it. I'm talking millions of dollars. Even though the film is probably the most famous "lost" film out there, in truth it's not a very good movie and Universal isn't willing to part with so much money to rescue the film. It's worth more as a lost film than if it were actually preserved and released. Catch 22.

 

[Drew Salzan]

That story is fascinating. Warners was notorious for not saving a lot of stuff (i.e. compared to MGM). I read somewhere that a good deal of magnetic tape containing music cues and prerecordings were erased and reused to save money :frowning: .

The fact that film preservation, restoration and even home video was not a part of the 1950's consciousness, MGM must have had some regard for their product as something worth saving; seen as art maybe?

 

[RobertSiegel]

Wow, reading these stories is really sad...to know there's stereo prints out there in someone's home. I can surely understand the collectors though, those films, unless they were purchased, are not supposed to be in their homes. It's a shame. I also know someone by emails from California that has a stereo print, in excellent condition, of the GREAT ESCAPE. He doesn't want anyone knowing who he is, I suppose for the same reason. Too bad, I've been trying to get him to tell MGM because all they have is mono. He also has a stereo print of How To Succeed in Business, he sent me the first l/2 hour and it sounds so great! I've lost it but asked for the whole soundtrack.

Now when I go and buy some of these mono classics that were stereo, it will be harder knowing there might be some in a person's home. :frowning:

 

[Nick Eden]

What a fascinating piece, especially that written by Joe Caps.

One way around the problem is for the studios to confirm in some sort of legal document that they will return the borrowed prints, that far from wishing to prosecute these collectors, that they (i.e. the studios) and film-lovers all over the world are grateful to these collectors for preserving a piece of irreplaceable history.

There has to be a way of getting these people together so that history in a can doesn't just turn to dust or get junked because someone is unaware of the true value of what they have in their hands!

 

[Joe Caps]

Robert seigal. Be careful when dealing with collectors. Many claim to have things that never existed.
I'm really sceptical about Great Escape.
On other things - email me at [email protected]
Thanks!!
P.S. Some collectors do come through. One collector let Turner borrow his uncut print of Raintree County and its this long version you see on TCM.
Another collector has the only known uncut print of Sand pebbles (something that Fox does not have) but has not come through with it.

 

[RobertSiegel]

Joe, I have not heard his tracks from Great Escape, but I used to have from him taped onto reel to reel the first half hour of the movie (just the audio for my own personal pleasure) HOW TO SUCCEED IN BUSINESS, and it's glorious true stereo, as good sounding as Chitty Bang Bang in fact, maybe a little worn on the print. I have been bothering him to do it again as I have lost it in several moves, so I am assuming he's being honest about the other one. He seems over the years we have communicated to be quite the honest man. But, since I havn't heard that one, I just can't say for sure.

 

[DeeF]

One movie I think sounds terrible is Giant. I'm sure there is a better rendition of the soundtrack out there.

 

[Drew Salzan]

I never knew that stereo prints existed for Giant, Calamity Jane or How To Succeed. What a tragedy. I agree that it will be difficult listening to these tracks in mono now that I have this information.

 

[JPCinema]

I remember seeing the uncut version of "The Sand Pebbles" in San Diego many times when it played in a reserved seat engagement at the Cinema 21. I sure wish that version could be seen by all on DVD and not just a private collector.

 

[Peter Kline]

Giant and Sand Pebbles.... great musicals!

 

[Charles Ellis]

I'm shocked and astounded that no one has mentioned a musical that hasn't been seen widely in over two decades: Otto Preminger's production of "Porgy & Bess"!!! I recall it was a Goldwyn release, and that like Annie Get Your Gun previously (with the Berlin estate), there's been a music rights issue with the Gershwin estate for years!! As a kid in the 70's I always looked forward to seeing it on TV at least once a year on a local station. But around 1980 it was pulled from circulation. What's the current story??

 

[Peter Kline]

Almost everybody involved - the actors, particularly, hate the film. The Gershwin estate will not, it seems, grant rights to use the music so the film is essentially gone.... until the songs eventally come out of copyright which is a long, long time from now.

 

[Drew Salzan]

Actually released by Columbia in Todd-AO, I've also heard the film elements are in total disrepair and in dire need of a major restoration. While not a great film (it was plagued by major problems such as fire and changes in director), it is still a significant piece of film history and hope that one day we see it again.

 

[JPCinema]

Months ago I read that a "restored" PORGY AND BESS was shown at a film festival in Europe, but I never heard anything more about it.

 

[Nick Eden]

Peter Kline mentions that the film Porgy & Bess is for all intents and purposes gone because the Gershwin estate will not allow use of the Gershwin songs: do you know exactly how long the songs remain under coyright i.e what year the copyright expires and potentially the film is available again?
I thought for many years I would never get to see Betty Hutton in Annie Get Your Gun and I think it is such a shame that films almost become lost to whole generations of film lovers. I have never seen Porgy & Bess and good bad or indifferent, I would like to make my own mind up about the film.