METROPOLIS R2 superior to METROPOLIS R1

Discussion in 'DVD' started by Richard Stammer, Apr 26, 2003.

  1. Richard Stammer

    Richard Stammer Stunt Coordinator

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    I'm not sure if this has been reported in another thread. But it just came to my attention that the R2 version of the new restored Metropolis, both the British, and particularly the German, R2 versions are superior in bit rate (and thus image quality)to the R1 version. They were released in two disc sets with the movie on one dual layered disc and the specail features on the second disc. See this link at DVDbeaver: http://www.dvdbeaver.com/.

    man, it just never ends in trying to get the best version.
     
  2. JeremySt

    JeremySt Screenwriter

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    The only comparison I see is between two different R2 versions;

    Transit-Universum Film PAL Region 2 vs. Film sans Frontières PAL Region 2. The better of the two appears identical to the R1 version.
     
  3. Jim Peavy

    Jim Peavy Supporting Actor

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    I wouldn't sweat upgrading, dude. This doesn't sound like it's worth agonizing over. IMO, of course.
     
  4. Richard Stammer

    Richard Stammer Stunt Coordinator

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    Sorry Guys, but did you actually READ the following from DVD Beaver? I don't know about you, but I prefer the best with a higher bit rate and better image.:

    Also available in a PAL-to-NTSC conversion transfer (23.98 f/s) as a single DVD-9 from Kino on Video in North America:


    The German intertitles have been removed from this edition and replaced with new English intertitles, with subtitles for title cards available in French & Spanish


    Also available in a PAL transfer (25 f/s) as a 2-DVD-Set from Eureka in the UK


    The German intertitles have been removed from this edition and replaced with new English intertitles


    "... In all fairness I should stress that the Kino edition is good and acceptable; but, with 210 minutes worth of weight put on one dual layered disc instead of being split onto two dual layered discs (the way Metropolis is presented in Europe) the difference has to show somewhere, provided the European editions were not screwed up, which they were not. The Region 1 by Kino was mastered by the same company (Imagicon) as the European editions; and it was Kino that insisted on a single Dual Layered disc. Compared to the European Editions, the Kino disc shows good resolution and detail, very good, detailed grey scale and excellent density, being based on the 2K restored print, which only occasionally reveals the use of material very noticeably different to the splendid negative. ... The similarities end between the DVD issues in the U.S. by Kino and those in Europe (Eureka and Ufa, respectively) when it comes to artefacts, and true representation of the prints' speed - the former was affected because the restoration of the English intertitles was done on high resolution video in PAL, and it was decided that the master would be converted to NTSC (from 25 fps PAL) rather than restoring everything to film and then transfer it back for the DVD mastering process. This also affects the music (going slightly slower) and you can see slight problems in sharpness and detail, as some frames overlap to merge into one. Also, there are some static noise patterns forming whenever the film elements are grainy. This is due to the limited disc capacity - as the feature had to be more compressed in order to get the extras onto the single disc. In essence, the decision by Kino was unfortunate. It is a good to very good release, but it could have been perfect. The Pal release by both Eureka in the U.K. and UFA in Germany is quite different: METROPOLIS is one of the few films actually being of the same projection speed as the TV standard PAL (25fps). This offers the tremendous opportunity to do everything right - the speed, the music, the quality without compromises due to speed differentials such as a conversion process. Disc One with the feature is an excellent presentation with almost entirely flawless results in compression and transfer of elements. Density is breathtaking, especially keeping in mind the dreadful releases in the past. Here, on the European release, there are no signs of artefacts, and the image is sharp and crisp benefiting from a much higher resolution as well as far higher detail. ..."
    — DVDScan-LaserExaminer
     
  5. Patrick McCart

    Patrick McCart Lead Actor

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    The video on Kino's edition takes up only about 170 minutes, not 210.
     
  6. Jim Peavy

    Jim Peavy Supporting Actor

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    We're 'sposed to read that absurdly long paragraph?! Gimme' a break...

    If the R2 is worth it to you, knock yourself out.
     
  7. Richard Stammer

    Richard Stammer Stunt Coordinator

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    Oh well. Just thought I would pass the info along. I didn't realize the attention span of Home Theater Forum readers was so limited. Guess this forum is not for people who care about the best quality image. My mistake.
     
  8. StevenA

    StevenA Second Unit

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    Richard, as somebody who took the trouble to read the very enlightening information you posted, I appreciate this thread very much. I have not yet bought Metropolis, and am now seriously considering opting for a PAL release.
     
  9. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    Richard,
    There is no reason to slam the entire forum based on a few responses. Painting the membership with such a wide brush is a mistake on your part.




    Crawdaddy
     
  10. Piers C

    Piers C Stunt Coordinator

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    Richard,

    Thanks for your thread.

    Regards
     
  11. Paul_Scott

    Paul_Scott Lead Actor

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    the Kino disc was one of the most expensive impulse buys that i can remember, but i'm glad i did it, because i was just floored by the movie and the presentation.
    i have a hard time believing i could have enjoyed it more.
    i disn't see any problems whatsoever with the transfer.
    if you are directly a/b'ing something, that is one thing...but i learned this when i was looking into upgrading my audio last year- if you don't have an immediate alternative to compare it to...what's the point?
    especially when A looks and sounds so good to begin with.

    in other words, i'm not tempted to upgrade at all, but for people who are region free ( and i actually am) and haven't bought this yet, this is good info to keep in mind.

    however- if the film had been projected at 20 fps for this R2 release, that would definitely have made me consider a double dip. i wasn't too bugged by the film speed of the Kino release, but having seen 20 fps silents before, the whole vibe they give off is considerably different.
    THAT would have been really interesting to see.
     
  12. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Executive Producer

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  13. Richard Stammer

    Richard Stammer Stunt Coordinator

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    Thanks for the feedback. Believe me, I wasn't slamming the entire forum at all. Sorry if any of you thought so. I have the highest respect for this one-of-a-kind forum. If I was slamming this forum, I'd be slamming myself as well as I've been a member for quite a while. I was just being facetious after such an underwhelming response from a few people who apparently haven't grasped the spirit of this forum, that I belive is to share information with each other so that we can have the best video presentations possible.

    And yes, Paul, I understand your point that without an A/B comparison, what's to worry? One of my family members just told me the other day that why should he upgrade to a bigger television and surround sound. What he has is just fine with him. And my mother-in-law insists that she can't here the difference between her portable cassette player and my home theater. So yes, beauty is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder.

    Like you, I knee-jerked immediately and bought the Metropolis DVD to add to my growing collection of Metropolis on various media formats (including 10 reel 8mm, VHS, laserdisc, and DVD). And I was indeed thrilled with the presentation, having been fortunate enough to see the restoration this past fall at the historic Senator Theater in Baltimore. However, I remain disappointed that Kino made a marketing decision that gives R1 customers an inferior product over R2 customers. I know this kind of thing happens frequently. But, should I be happy to accept this?

    I also am versed on the fps issue. I remain hopeful someday that Metropolis will be available at a slower projection speed. If necessary, I can use my WinDVD player to adjust the speed.
     
  14. Jim Peavy

    Jim Peavy Supporting Actor

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    Thanks you, Adam!

    Sheesh!
     
  15. Jeff_HR

    Jeff_HR Producer

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    I was wondering some time back before I purchased Kino's version whether I should get the German version. I guess i should have waited. This has me wondering about the new version of "M" coming out. [​IMG]
     
  16. Jussi Tarvainen

    Jussi Tarvainen Second Unit

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    I understand there's a lot of controversy about the recent Kino release being too fast. Now, if the R1 DVD has this problem, doesn't that mean that the PAL speed-up on the R2 disc makes the situation even worse? From what I've read, the film is a little too fast even on the R1 disc.
     
  17. Claes Ljunghorn

    Claes Ljunghorn Stunt Coordinator

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  18. Jussi Tarvainen

    Jussi Tarvainen Second Unit

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    So the two releases (R1 and R2) have the exact same running time? Or is the R1 version longer due to this NTSC slow-down?
     
  19. Dan Rudolph

    Dan Rudolph Producer

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    Claes, my understanding was there is no NTSC slowdown. If a PAL source iws being transferred to NTSC, they just double every fifth frame and transfer as 30 fps.
     
  20. Brian W.

    Brian W. Screenwriter

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    Thank you, Richard. I'm glad I waited on this title. I'll be getting the Region 2 now.
     

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