Marantz AV 10 - Initial Impressions (2 Viewers)

[John Dirk]

Hey, is there any “Dirac ART for Dummies” info out there? I read the basics on the Dirac website and I still don’t understand what ART is or supposed to be. Or when it’s going to be available.

Of course there isn't and [as I see it] that's the problem with DIRAC. Not only do you need to pay for it, you also need to invest lots of your time before you can hope to achieve meaningful [DBLC] results. At this point in my life, time is worth more than money.

I bought the AV10, in part, because it offered a path beyond Audyssey but it's been nearly 2 years and I haven't pulled the Dirac trigger yet. Honestly, I doubt I ever will. The Audyssey app allows me to tweak enough, unless I'm either ready to go the DBLC route or spend substantially more for a Trinnov-level solution. Specifically speaking, ART seems like "snake oil" to me. Inverse frequencies cancelling out active ones, in real-time?

 

[JohnRice]

Specifically speaking, ART seems like "snake oil" to me. Inverse frequencies cancelling out active ones, in real-time?

Snake Oil?!?

In audio? What on earth could you be thinking?

 

[JohnRice]

OK, so...

My first impression these days is... there is an absurd amount of magical thinking with home theater, and audio in general.

First, speaker placement is paramount. Unfortunately, there seems to be a prevailing belief that room correction makes the speaker layout of little to no importance. These fanciful, miracle fix claims, in my opinion, can not defy physics. No doubt they can improve on unavoidable compromises in layout, but success still begins with a solid foundation.

When it comes down to it, I just don't like automated things. Especially things as complex as calibrating a surround system. I know a lot of people just want to spend a ton of $, push a button, and then spend every moment thinking about improvements and things they can spend more $ on. My personal preference is to dig deep into the weeds, make decisions, understand how to maximize it as much as I can, and then never think about it again. Instead, enjoying the results.

So, I use a computer, a UMIK-1, Room EQ Wizard, and a bunch of sweeps. That way I can see the results. I can see the effect of changes. This is especially important with subwoofer(s), where I can make adjustments and genuinely see what happens. It's a valuable learning process. I love the SVS subs for this, because they allow precise adjustment of each individual sub by tablet app. With the dual SB16s in my HT, I used REW to integrate them individually into the room, then to integrate them with each other, then to integrate them with the rest of the system. No magical thinking, just real-world results, and I can see the results right in front of me. No wondering if something is wrong. I can run sweeps again (if I was ever tempted to, which I never have been) to verify what is actually happening. I did all of this four years ago. I genuinely thought I'd want to revisit it to make sure everything was still good, but there has never been one moment when anything ever seemed improper. Occasionally a movie or music recording has too much or too little bass for my tastes, and I temporarily adjust both subs the same amount, but I have always returned to the default that was established in 2021.

 

[DaveF]

This gives an overview of Dirac Live, Bass Control, and ART

 

[JohnRice]

Am I the only one who completely tunes out every time something is claimed to be "game-changing"? Nothing drives me away as fast as that.

 

[Clinton McClure]

Game changing is usually detrimental.

 

[DaveF]

Having read more about ART, I’m intrigued. It sounds like it could be an appreciable improvement over Audyssey, ARC, and vanilla Dirac. As the price tag will ~$10k when available via the AV20 I’ll need a lot more info and some demos, maybe even in my theater, before I could consider buying.

But definitely worth paying attention to.

 

[JohnRice]

How much does ART cost? Or has it been announced yet?

 

[DaveF]

How much does ART cost? Or has it been announced yet?

I don’t think so, not that I’ve seen. Given that Dirac is $600 on Marantz, it seems an easy guess that ART will add another $400 at least.

$300 download from Dirac for the StormAudio hardware, the one system supporting right now.

StormAudio I.ISP 16.12 – Dirac

DIRAC LIVE FOR StormAudio I.ISP 16.12 Get your license StormAudio I.ISP 16.12 comes with both Room Correction and Bass Control included. However, to truly enjoy...

www.dirac.com

 

[JohnRice]

I don’t think so, not that I’ve seen. Given that Dirac is $600 on Marantz, it seems an easy guess that ART will add another $400 at least.

$300 download from Dirac for the StormAudio hardware, the one system supporting right now.

StormAudio I.ISP 16.12 – Dirac

DIRAC LIVE FOR StormAudio I.ISP 16.12 Get your license StormAudio I.ISP 16.12 comes with both Room Correction and Bass Control included. However, to truly enjoy...

www.dirac.com

I’m guessing that is to upgrade from the $600(?) for basic Dirac, for $900 total.

 

[DaveF]

I assume so too. My impression is you want to run both Live and Bass Control first before using the ART system.

 

[John Dirk]

I assume so too. My impression is you want to run both Live and Bass Control first before using the ART system.

Having read more about ART, I’m intrigued. It sounds like it could be an appreciable improvement over Audyssey, ARC, and vanilla Dirac. As the price tag will ~$10k when available via the AV20 I’ll need a lot more info and some demos, maybe even in my theater, before I could consider buying.

But definitely worth paying attention to.

Perhaps...

I chose the AV10 because it offered a path to Dirac [ultimately DLBC] but have yet to purchase the license. The reason? Like ART [as far as I can tell] Dirac and DLBC want you to "just trust them" in that their "magic formula" actually works. If it doesn't they'll tell you it's your fault. "You need to spend more time tweaking it," etc. If I'm going to spend hours tweaking, I could have just purchased a MiniDSP 2X4HD and gone that route. As I see it, if DIRAC wants to command these prices, they're going to have to come up with some method of putting their money where their mouth is.

 

[JohnRice]

Isn’t the full, multi sub Dirac almost $1K already? So… $300 on top of that? Is there a time share condo option?

 

[DaveF]

Isn’t the full, multi sub Dirac almost $1K already? So… $300 on top of that? Is there a time share condo option?

DBLC and Live are $600 total. ART isn’t available yet, but should be $300. $900 total.

Is that everything from Dirac?

 

[DaveF]

Like ART [as far as I can tell] Dirac and DLBC want you to "just trust them" in that their "magic formula" actually works. If it doesn't they'll tell you it's your fault. "You need to spend more time tweaking it," etc.

So do Audyssey, ARC, Trinnov.

 

[Robert Saccone]

So do Audyssey, ARC, Trinnov.

Yes I agree. I use ARC and Audyssey on two different setups and I always end up spending time tweaking the results. I do try not to obsess though.

 

[DaveF]

I don’t know any way to tweak Audyssey on my Marantz 7702.

 

[Robert Saccone]

I don’t know any way to tweak Audyssey on my Marantz 7702.

I am using the PC base MultEq-X version. Lets you build custom curves and has much more flexibility overall around configuration management put. Still even with built in Audyssey you can tweak cross overs and adjust bass levels

 

[John Dirk]

So do Audyssey, ARC, Trinnov.

Partially agree. With basic room correction solutions, results can be easily verified [and tweaked] with [pre and post] REW sweeps. I don't believe even REW can adequately show the absence of room decay and/or reflections. That seems laughably subjective in my view. There's also the added cost element. DIRAC is the only solution I know of that is sold a la carte. The full suite [including ART] for the AV10 will likely cost over $900.00.

I don’t know any way to tweak Audyssey on my Marantz 7702.

I don't have the PC-based version @Robert Saccone referenced but I do have the IOS MultEQ app. It allows you to limit the range of correction, do basic curve editing and disable the [mostly detrimental] midrange compensation "feature," but yea, not available for the AV7702.

 

[DaveF]

I was sending my missives while at the gym this morning before work, so was overly terse.

If you prefer rolling your own room correction to running any of these automated tools, that’s hobbyist choice. But having glanced at REW and mini-dsp and done a quick search on options for outboard room correction options, I came away uninterested in trying to go that route.

And what’s exciting about ART is it really looks like next-gen processing. Audyssey and ARC and REW, I believe, are all basically the same thing: speaker distance adjustment and speaker frequency correction. The differences I’m guessing are about how many sample points, how many computed points, and magic sauce in combining multiple measurement locations. ART adds something new: using active audio output from speakers to further improve perceived room echo and delay effects. Surround speakers actively play to support correction from LCR, say.

Does it work well? Will it work in my theater? Is it useable by an enthusiast or is a pro installer needed? Is it worth the money compared to current systems? I don’t know. Info is sparse. I’ve read one review. But to me, who wants to upgrade room correction in a significant way beyond Audyssey, ART is exciting and very promising.