Interview Lucasfilm on Star Wars the Complete Saga Blu-ray: Hands on Report (1 Viewer)

[Sam Posten]

Changes confirmed by Lucasfilm http://twitter.com/#!/ditzkoff

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/31/lucasfilm-confirms-change-to-blu-ray-release-of-return-of-the-jedi/?smid=tw-artsbeat&seid=auto

 

[FoxyMulder]

Originally Posted by Hal Masonberg
Doug, I suppose it depends on whether or not film history is important to you. Lucas stood before the Supreme Court and argued against Colorization because once the films were out there, they belonged to the public. As someone who embraced those original films in their original releases, I want to be able to return to that experience. And that's the experience I want to share with my children, nephews, nieces, etc. I love the original KING KONG, the original SINBAD movies, JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS, etc. I don't want to see them "technologically improved." There's magic in those frames that need no "fixing." Beyond that, they represent the technological achievements of the time in which those films were made. They reflect our culture, our art. our creativity and our technology. They are all vastly important both practically and emotionally. For Lucas to systematically wipe that out is --while perhaps not criminal-- incredibly irresponsible. And immensely selfish. No one's asking Lucas not to change the films. They're just asking him to show the original works as they were presented to the world at the time they were made in addition to his "highly altered" versions. Even Lucas friend and contemporary Steven Spielberg has come out against digital alterations on any future films of his: “There’s going to be no more digital enhancements or digital additions to anything based on any film I direct. I’m not going to do any corrections digitally to even wires that show… If 1941 comes on Blu-ray I’m not going to go back and take the wires out because the Blu-ray will bring the wires out that are guiding the airplane down Hollywood Blvd. At this point right now I think letting movies exist in the era, with all the flaws and all of the flourishes, is a wonderful way to mark time and mark history.” At least he came to his senses and realized the importance of the history of films. Including his own. And I can't help but think this was a direct response to much of what Lucas is continually doing to his Star Wars universe and the history he is pretending never existed.

Thats very well put, i agree.

 

[cafink]

"At this point right now I think letting movies exist in the era, with all the flaws and all of the flourishes, is a wonderful way to mark time and mark history.

This quote from Speilberg is exactly how I feel about the issue, and why I always like to see the original version of a movie included on DVD & Blu-ray, even when I really like or even prefer an alternate version.

 

[SamT]

OK it's official. Lucas has lost his mind. I just saw this change to Return of the Jedi on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27RVJJfny4I&annotation_id=annotation_867594&feature=iv This is ridiculous. There is absolutely no excuse to mess around like this. He has added a childish Vader NO to this most important part of the saga. It worked perfectly fine before in silence and it was even more powerful. After seeing this, I'm very disappointed. Lucas has gone completely mad. :td:

 

[DarthYotsuya]

Unless something really strange has happened, I'd say there are archival prints at Lucasfilm and elsewhere. Not sure what the condition of all those prints are, but they exist.

I believe The Library of Congress has copies. If they do, all their films are stored under ideal conditions to minimize any deterioration.

 

[DarthYotsuya]

Huh? Who said that? It's really simple dude. Jurassic Park is a film. There are digital effects but everything was finished on film. It was projected via film, on 50 foot screens. No one saw pixels. Because 1) They did not record a pixelated image onto the film, even though the effects are supposedly low rez. There are interpolation/upscaling algorythms used to alleviate these artifacts. 2) Once recorded onto film the image is no longer digital. It is an now an analogue image. The fact that the effects are digital is no longer relevant. The reason for this lack of relevance is because we are talking about a final, finished piece of film, and scanning it into the video domain for posterity, and hopefuly a great BD transfer. Scanning at 4K using todays equipment will, almost without fail, give a truer, more accurate image than scanning a piece of film at 1080P using 15 year-old telecines, even after downscaling to 1080P for BD. And to keep this on topic: The whole point is that this is what I wish was done to the Star Wars films, despite your rediculous "too much resolution" protestations to the contrary.

Film has no pixels, thats just about all i'm going to say on this matter other than the fact that Jurassic Park scanned at 4K will look fine.
 
Look at Tron, here are some images taken from another site, it looks gorgeous in HD.
 
Oh look its an old and early CGI computer shot, dated for sure and yes recorded out onto VistaVision which helps a lot but still its very early CGI and it looks fine, kinda ruins your argument Robin.
 
http://www.landofwhimsy.com/archives/2011/08/bd-impressions-tron/
 
Full post with more images.
 
http://www.landofwhimsy.com/archives/2011/08/bd-impressions-tron/

Oh, you two really take the cake. Just show me that a digital image has a higher resolution after it is transferred to film. You can't because it doesn't. It doesn't matter what sort of interpolation/upscaling algorythms you use, it is impossible to take a 2k image, transfer it to film and get anything higher than a 2k image (as far as gaining details) no matter if you scan it at 4k, 6k, 8k, or 100k. It is a simple law of digital resolution. You can get rid of the look of pixels, but you can't add more details that aren't there. If you could there would be no point in scanning anything at more than 2k. I suggest both of you learn what you are talking about before making such ridiculous claims. And an HD resolution image proves nothing without knowing what resolution the CG was created at (and with Tron, you have to know if the scene you are looking at is one of the 20 minutes of actual CG, or the animation that was done to look like CG), you have no argument. Now if you provided a link to a 4k image, then we could have a proper discussion. Until then, you really need to dig into photoshop and manipulate some images before you make another comment. As for my "too much resolution" argument, the more I read the more I hear others saying the same thing. Citizen Kane was shown at Grauman's Chinese Theater during the TCM Film Festival in LA. It was presented digitally and while it brought out great detail, it also brought out how fake the old age makeup looked and called into question, in the mind of the article's author, if old movies should really be presented that way. I want my old movies to look like films. if you show them with such precise detail that only a digital scan and projection can give you, are you really presenting the film as intended, of does this constitute an artificial enhancement as bad as removing too much grain. Being able to scan at such high resolutions will help preserve these films for the future, but showing them that way doesn't seem to be wining hearts with lovers of old films. Myself among them. And that has been my argument all along is the presentation. And if you can take a digital image and put it on film and have such clear detail, why would you ever need to scan higher than HD? You can always put it on film and scan it at a higher resolution later if you want. That is what your argument has been. Can you really do that with interpolation/upscaling algorythms? No you can't and both of you know this. And before you say anything, a 2k digital image is 2k whether it is CG, a scan of film, or captured by a 2k digital camera. How the digital image was made makes no difference, you cannot increase the detail resolution by upscaling it to 4k, no matter what you do. You can hide the pixeling, but you can't ever get more detail. It just is not possible. End of story!

 

[Clinton McClure]

No thanks. I'll keep spinning my laserdiscs of the OOT.

 

While you have every right to your opinion about the merits of this or that transfer or sound mix, it's way off the beam to say that the video and audio teams working at Lucasfilm are somehow not professional. It's also off the beam to say that fan work done on a home computer shows "a lot more care and attention". These are people who make their living doing this work. We may disagree with some of their choices but dismissing their work in favor of a home computer conversion gets into an unfortunate area.
But my opinion differs in that I think a professional team that's been working on a DVD release for around 4 years shouldn't have their work dismissed before people have actually seen it. And while the various makers of fan cuts are to be applauded for their enthusiasm, you're not talking about someone working in a professional facility or capacity. The fan cuts have all been made by fans working at home in their off hours - and I don't think Lucasfilm begrudges them their enthusiasm. It's when they get into distribution that Lucasfilm's ears perk up. I hope you're right that someday Lucas may decide to make a better version of the original cuts available, but I just don't see him doing it.

I will take some issue with this. Judging solely from the clips I've seen from the Blu-Ray rips (and I could certainly be wrong on this), Lucasfilm seems to have added visual tweaks while ignoring (or, in some cases, outright mangling) other visual/audio elements. The R2 "overload" scene at the Endor generator in ROTJ has new FX which includes more blue lightning bolts, more appendages popping out and smoke filtering from various ports. Yet, the background wire that's used to pull R2 backwards (which wasn't cleaned up in the original) is still there in the shot. The now-infamous Vader "NO!" scene with Luke and the Emperor has the line "Father, please" being overdubbed (and faintly audible in the background) as Vader says his first "no". Say what you will about the fact that the dramatic impact of the series' climax has been changed, but the new line overdubbing the theatrical cut is just shoddy and unprofessional. The revised Han/Greedo scene has them both firing at the exact same time, and Han not even moving his head to avoid Greedo's shot (which, if I remember correctly, he did in the SE). I've been on the fence about buying this set (and I probably will - I definitely want the extras), but it's looking as though I'll end up keeping the Revisited fan edits too. I don't know if you've ever seen them, but the changes (in most cases) don't impact the narrative or overriding visual style - they're just noticeable enough (i.e. new ships fleeing Bespin in ESB, tweaked effects that don't go overboard, continuity fixes, etc.) that it makes watching the film a fresh experience. That, and it's something the author has ALSO spent several years working on, and from the response that I've seen about it (going all the way up to crew members involved with ANH), the response has been incredibly positive.

 

[Douglas Monce]

Film has no pixels, thats just about all i'm going to say on this matter other than the fact that Jurassic Park scanned at 4K will look fine.
 
Look at Tron, here are some images taken from another site, it looks gorgeous in HD.
 
Oh look its an old and early CGI computer shot, dated for sure and yes recorded out onto VistaVision which helps a lot but still its very early CGI and it looks fine, kinda ruins your argument Robin.
 
http://www.landofwhimsy.com/archives/2011/08/bd-impressions-tron/
 
Full post with more images.
 
http://www.landofwhimsy.com/archives/2011/08/bd-impressions-tron/

Damn it!!! Now I have to buy Tron on blu-ray. I was avoiding spending the money, but no...you have to go and post these images! YOU SUCK MAN!!!! Doug

 

[Douglas Monce]

Doug, I suppose it depends on whether or not film history is important to you. Lucas stood before the Supreme Court and argued against Colorization because once the films were out there, they belonged to the public. As someone who embraced those original films in their original releases, I want to be able to return to that experience. And that's the experience I want to share with my children, nephews, nieces, etc. I love the original KING KONG, the original SINBAD movies, JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS, etc. I don't want to see them "technologically improved." There's magic in those frames that need no "fixing." Beyond that, they represent the technological achievements of the time in which those films were made. They reflect our culture, our art. our creativity and our technology. They are all vastly important both practically and emotionally. For Lucas to systematically wipe that out is --while perhaps not criminal-- incredibly irresponsible. And immensely selfish. No one's asking Lucas not to change the films. They're just asking him to show the original works as they were presented to the world at the time they were made in addition to his "highly altered" versions. Even Lucas friend and contemporary Steven Spielberg has come out against digital alterations on any future films of his: “There’s going to be no more digital enhancements or digital additions to anything based on any film I direct. I’m not going to do any corrections digitally to even wires that show… If 1941 comes on Blu-ray I’m not going to go back and take the wires out because the Blu-ray will bring the wires out that are guiding the airplane down Hollywood Blvd. At this point right now I think letting movies exist in the era, with all the flaws and all of the flourishes, is a wonderful way to mark time and mark history.” At least he came to his senses and realized the importance of the history of films. Including his own. And I can't help but think this was a direct response to much of what Lucas is continually doing to his Star Wars universe and the history he is pretending never existed.

Film history is VERY important to me as a film maker and as audience member. Having said that, I believe what Lucas was complaining about was not that the films were changed, but rather that they were changed by people other than the original film makers. I have mixed feelings about the whole subject. As a film maker, I consider my films MINE, and mine to change as I see fit. However I under stand that people become emotionally attached to films, even to their flaws. Personally I'm lazy. I don't like redoing things I've already done, so I wouldn't go back and change something I made 20 years ago, but I also wouldn't care to have someone who paid $10 for a ticket, tell me how my film should be presented. Doug

 

[Douglas Monce]

This quote from Speilberg is exactly how I feel about the issue, and why I always like to see the original version of a movie included on DVD & Blu-ray, even when I really like or even prefer an alternate version.

For me this would be the best possible solution, and I suspect that eventually the original cuts of the films will be released. Doug

 

[RobertR]

I suspect that eventually the original cuts of the films will be released. Doug

Not in the lifetime of George Lucas.

 

[Douglas Monce]

Not in the lifetime of George Lucas.

In the last few years in interviews he seems to be softening to the idea. Doug

 

[RobertR]

In the last few years in interviews he seems to be softening to the idea. Doug

What interviews?

 

[DarthYotsuya]

In the last few years in interviews he seems to be softening to the idea. Doug

I hope so. On the positive side, his good friend Steven Spielberg has committed to not altering any films when they come out on blu-ray (which hopefully means that for those films Spielberg has tinkered with, both versions will be included). Hopefully he has some influence and maybe we might see that in a few years.

 

[Jesse Blacklow]

While you have every right to your opinion about the merits of this or that transfer or sound mix, it's way off the beam to say that the video and audio teams working at Lucasfilm are somehow not professional. It's also off the beam to say that fan work done on a home computer shows "a lot more care and attention". These are people who make their living doing this work. We may disagree with some of their choices but dismissing their work in favor of a home computer conversion gets into an unfortunate area.

Really? You do realize that this is said in the defense of a filmmaker and a company that whose reputations were built on the concept of home-brewed moviemaking and SFX. ILM went out of its way to find people who were the 1970s equivalent of some guy doing a home computer conversion in his own time. Nor do I think that it's off the beam to say that the home-brew work shows more care and attention. Which leads me to...

And while the various makers of fan cuts are to be applauded for their enthusiasm, you're not talking about someone working in a professional facility or capacity. The fan cuts have all been made by fans working at home in their off hours - and I don't think Lucasfilm begrudges them their enthusiasm.

If anything, this argument is more damning rather than less. It's precisely because fan editors haven't been working in a professional facility or capacity, working at home in their off hours, that would make this more galling, if true. Lucasfilm could have spent a relatively tiny amount of money and time to do this right, and now we're seeing possible evidence that they chose to either spend that money and time poorly or not at all. For instance, in 2004, Lucasfilm could have taken fans' criticisms and, weighing them seriously, reached out to fans for suggestions. Within a couple of days, they would have gotten everything from minor items (erasing the pull-wire behind R2 when he gets shot), to moderate (fixing the continuity errors in Cloud City windows), to major (fixing lightsaber colors and cores and missing music/dialog). Instead, apparently, they did minor spot-checks and half-heartedly fixed some of the sound issues. And the quality of some of the work in the rips is appalling. The CGI rocks when R2 is hiding look bad by the standards of the SFX in the 1997 SEs let alone 2011, 2008, or 2004. The Krayt yell and the new "NOOOO" sound (which, may I remind you, was derided almost unanimously by fans, and mocked by mainstream audiences) as if they were recorded by some kid with their parents' tape recorder they found in an attic. There's not just no excuse that any of this would still exist in the new version, but when some guy with Photoshop and a PC does it as good or better than you by the metrics of a large part of your fanbase, you're just showing at best ignorance, and at worst disdain. Of course, the icing on the cake is setting up a press fucntion where reps go out of their way to say they fixed everything and that they're aware of even the low-end fan complaints. Again, if true, that would just be a dick move, exponentially worse if it was used to gin up enthusiasm for mainstream sales at the expense of said fanbase.

 

[Hal Masonberg]

Film history is VERY important to me as a film maker and as audience member. Having said that, I believe what Lucas was complaining about was not that the films were changed, but rather that they were changed by people other than the original film makers. I have mixed feelings about the whole subject. As a film maker, I consider my films MINE, and mine to change as I see fit. However I under stand that people become emotionally attached to films, even to their flaws. Personally I'm lazy. I don't like redoing things I've already done, so I wouldn't go back and change something I made 20 years ago, but I also wouldn't care to have someone who paid $10 for a ticket, tell me how my film should be presented. Doug

Doug, Lucas' comments in the Supreme Court went beyond being upset that these films were being changed by people other than the filmmakers themselves. His argument --and one I strongly agree with-- was that the films, once offered to the public, belonged as much to the public as to the filmmakers. I have a difficult time seeing how someone can care about film history, and simultaneously support portions of it being wiped out. And I would say the three original STAR WARS qualify as "important" pieces of that film history. We're not talking about obscure films here. We're talking about films that impacted not only a whole new generation of people, but a whole new generation of filmmakers. And the films represent a very particular point in time. In our history, our culture. You simply cannot claim to care about film history, say you recognize its importance, and then support a filmmaker's right to eliminate that simply because he's changed his mind or was never quite happy. Again, no one is suggesting he not go back and make changes. The guy owns the films and he's still tinkering. More power to him. But to disregard the original works... That is not respectful nor responsible behavior in my opinion. There's no way around it. I, personally, do not like the changes he's made. It changes the experience for me in a very dramatic way. And not for the better. So for me, as technology improves and my laser discs of the original cuts start to look worse, as they start to decay from laser rot, etc., my options to enjoy these films that meant so much to me and were so groundbreaking in their day, are running out. Eventually, as Lucas seems to desire, there will be no way to see a decent presentation of those original films. They will disappear. As it stands, I do not return to the Star Wars universe any more. But I hope to one day again. In HD. But only if Lucas can get passed the idea that just because he is the filmmaker and has a legal right to do whatever he wants, that he has no responsibility to anyone or anything other than himself. That, in my terms, is selfish. We WILL lose something of importance here.

 

[EnricoE]

you know what the academy of motion picture, arts and science should do? take away all academy awards that have given to "a new hope", "the empire strikes back" and "return of the jedi" from george lucas and lucasfilm ltd. mr. lucas has altered the movies in away that they no longer represent the original theatrical release and he denies the access of these versions. as he said "for me they no longer exist" and therefor the academy awards should be taken from him.

 

[Sam Favate]

Originally Posted by EnricoE
you know what the academy of motion picture, arts and science should do? take away all academy awards that have given to "a new hope", "the empire strikes back" and "return of the jedi" from george lucas and lucasfilm ltd. mr. lucas has altered the movies in away that they no longer represent the original theatrical release and he denies the access of these versions. as he said "for me they no longer exist" and therefor the academy awards should be taken from him.

Lucas didn't win any Oscars. You'd be taking away awards from the likes of John Williams, Ben Burtt, the editing team, the visual effects team, the sound people, and so on.
That is also petty.

 

[Carlo_M]

Lucas didn't win any Oscars. You'd be taking away awards from the likes of John Williams, Ben Burtt, the editing team, the visual effects team, the sound people, and so on.
 
That is also petty.

Which in a sense Lucas has started to do with his replacement of certain visual effects with CGI and the [much maligned] reworking of sound effects.