Lost: Season Six

Jeffery_H

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Originally Posted by Jake Gove

This is for MattCR, from the link posted above. It's from someone who works for the production company Bad Robot, that produces Lost:

Good stuff on here! I can finally throw in my two cents! I've had to bite my tongue for far too long. Also, hopefully I can answer some of John's questions about Dharma and the "pointless breadcrumbs" that really, weren't so pointless ...

First ...
The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

Note: there's more to the post, I just posted the relevant portion, relating to the fact that ONLY the sideways world was purgatory.

Again, pointing out this does NOT make you are anyone else correct. It is still very much open to how you want to view it. This so called person that is said to be connected to "Bad Robot" productions is not a PROVEN SOURCE. Even if it was, that does not mean they are somehow in the know or any more qualified to speak on their views than anyone else here or on other Lost fan sites. [COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Unless I read a DIRECT QUOTE from Cuse and Lindelof giving a specific answer to something then NOTHING is a fact or any more valid than others view points.[/COLOR]
 

TravisR

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Originally Posted by Jeffery_H
[COLOR= rgb(178,34,34)]Unless I read a DIRECT QUOTE from Cuse and Lindelof giving a specific answer to something then NOTHING is a fact or any more valid than others view points.[/COLOR]


For better or worse, you're never going to get that because they (wisely IMO) don't want to dictate what the ending means so viewers can come to their own conclusions. That being said, I definitely think they survived the crash.
 

Steve Kuester

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Originally Posted by Josh Dial



...Second, it tricked me. It tricked me and there were clues (like, as I wrote above, the total lack of light vs. dark conflict) I just simply missed. The show tricked me and I liked it, so I forgive them :)

This is something I started thinking about once we learned the flash-sideways was purgatory. Looking back, (now that we know they were in a purgatory-like place in the sideways) were we given any clues to this effect?


I immediately thought of Rose on the plane talking to Jack. I rewatched the first few minutes of LA X and Rose said to Jack, "Its okay, you can let go." This now makes me think that Rose was already aware of where she was and was just waiting for the rest of them to work it out themselves. It would make sense to me that Rose would get there sooner (or first) since she lived her life in a way that wouldn't require her to "let go" of so many issues. Yes? No?


What else could have tipped us off?
 

Josh Dial

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Originally Posted by Jeffery_H


[COLOR= rgb(178, 34, 34)]Unless I read a DIRECT QUOTE from Cuse and Lindelof giving a specific answer to something then NOTHING is a fact or any more valid than others view points.[/COLOR]

Well, here ya go:


http://ca.eonline.com/uberblog/watch_with_kristin/b8208_lost_redux_okay_now_it_purgatory_get.html


http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Portal:Official_Lost_Podcast/Season_3 (listen to the podcast for April 30th, "D.O.C"/"The Brig," and scrub to 3:30) "we were not lying, and it's not purgatory."


They specifically say it's not purgatory, that they aren't lying about that fact, and that if they were lying, they would get tarred and feathered, so they aren't lying. Damon Lindelof literally swore that they aren't dead, and it isn't purgatory.


If you can't believe a man swearing an oath to his fans, and then doing swearing it again alongside one of his best friends (as he refers to Cuse), then how can you truly believe anything in life?
 

NeilO

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One thing that I still believe is not quite explained is some of the appearances of Christian Shephard. We know some of them are the Smoke Monster, but there are at least 3 which are not quite clear.


1) How was Christian able to appear to Jack in Los Angeles? Was it just a hallucination?

2) How was he able to appear to Michael aboard the freighter? If that was the Smoke Monster, how did he get to the freighter?
3) His appearance back in time (before 1867) below the well near the Orchid station with Locke. Assuming it was the Smoke Monster - how did that work out? How did he know Locke was going to flash in there way back then? Did he have a timeflash warning system that alerted him? Was he just hanging out there trying to excavate it again? If he was there , did he just read Locke's mind to get all the information he needed to discuss things and instruct him? And then from that point, realize that this was how he was going to set things in motion to eventually kill Jacob?
 

Bryan^H

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Originally Posted by Josh Dial



If you can't believe a man swearing an oath to his fans, and then doing swearing it again alongside one of his best friends (as he refers to Cuse), then how can you truly believe anything in life?
But the purgatory aspect still figures in the show. The characters were in purgatory at the very end right? Is he purposely trying to make us go mad?
 

Holadem

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Originally Posted by NeilO

One thing that I still believe is not quite explained is some of the appearances of Christian Shephard. We know some of them are the Smoke Monster, but there are at least 3 which are not quite clear.


1) How was Christian able to appear to Jack in Los Angeles? Was it just a hallucination?

2) How was he able to appear to Michael aboard the freighter? If that was the Smoke Monster, how did he get to the freighter?
3) His appearance back in time (before 1867) below the well near the Orchid station with Locke. Assuming it was the Smoke Monster - how did that work out? How did he know Locke was going to flash in there way back then? Did he have a timeflash warning system that alerted him? Was he just hanging out there trying to excavate it again? If he was there , did he just read Locke's mind to get all the information he needed to discuss things and instruct him? And then from that point, realize that this was how he was going to set things in motion to eventually kill Jacob?

1) Jack was stoned

3) The plan was well in motion by then. About 1867... who knows how time behaves in that wheel cave. But where do you get that date from?


But I was just gonna post about 2 actually. Was thinking about it minutes ago and couldn't figure it out either.


Another example: Ben wanders into the jungle after his dead mother, tells Richard about it, and Richard, of all people, doesn't get suspicious.


And then Ben spends years thinking he can summon Smokey at will, but somehow Richard, his adviser, doesn't know about this or caution him against contact with this supposed great evil of which he has first hand knowledge. And I feel like the only answers to such questions are credibility-straining stuff like, well, they just never talked about it.


But just generally, this is the kind of stuff I mean when I say that I don't see a coherent whole in what happened on that Island. A lot of it makes sense, but much of it that should, (I say "should", to explicitly excludes the kind of meaningless details about which answer-seekers are often accused of being obsessed), still doesn't.


And I have many others. They are less of the 'What is X" variety, than about how the various factions have interacted in the past.


I don't know what to make of that write up from the supposed Bad Robot employee. His explanation for Smokey's interaction with Dharma and the Others doesn't quite gel for me based on what we've seen.


--

H
 

Hugh Jackes

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Re: The so-called Bad Robot writer's blog. It is so riddled with misspellings that to me it is suspect. Anyone can claim to be anything on the 'net, and this guy could be anything. I am normally not a snob about misspellings and typos (Lord knows I'm guilty bunches of these, especially when I'm in a hurry), but I would expect more from someone who described himself as a writer. Heck, he even spelled some of the characters' names wrong (Rousseau [Roussou[ and Lepidus [Lupidis] jump off the page.
 

Holadem

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Originally Posted by Hugh Jackes

Re: The so-called Bad Robot writer's blog. It is so riddled with misspellings that to me it is suspect. Anyone can claim to be anything on the 'net, and this guy could be anything. I am normally not a snob about misspellings and typos (Lord knows I'm guilty bunches of these, especially when I'm in a hurry), but I would expect more from someone who described himself as a writer. Heck, he even spelled some of the characters' names wrong (Rousseau [Roussou[ and Lepidus [Lupidis] jump off the page.
My feelings exactly.


--

H
 

NeilO

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Originally Posted by Holadem

3) The plan was well in motion by then. About 1867... who knows how time behaves in that wheel cave. But where do you get that date from?
It needs to be before 1867 because those still on the surface of the island can see the large Tawaret statue that was broken up by the arrival of the Black Rock in 1867.
 

NeilO

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TravisR
For better or worse, you're never going to get that because they (wisely IMO) don't want to dictate what the ending means so viewers can come to their own conclusions. That being said, I definitely think they survived the crash.-

Actually, I think they said that they are just going into "radio silence" so we can make our own interpretations of the ending for now. They may have some commentary or feature on the DVDs discussing this. They will probably come out of "radio silence" in the weeks leading up to the eruption of the DVDs on Mt. Vesuvius Day (aka August 24).
 

mattCR

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I have a hard time buying just a random blogspot blog is anybody of any importance, and if he did work for Bad Robot, he probably doesn't now, since they've said it's their policy not to comment, and so he's the dumbest person imaginable for throwing away a job at this moment as a writer. Meanwhile, posting anonymously on the nets and pretending to be someone is easy. So, the blogspot article really doesn't mean much to me.


Let me recap my thoughts: I have said over the past six seasons, I have never viewed this through the Christian mythos, and I've tried to look at this through different views as it developed, and I admired the creators of the program for the density of the show and it's efforts to involve so many religious concepts, a density of beliefs, myths, etc.


I have my own view on it. I understand others don't. But if the show is to remain entertaining, at least for me, it is the only satisfactory way to view it.


If I accept that the island was "real" then too much of the show - nearly 3/4 of the episodes, become pointless, contradictory, and more then that not only are none of the central questions answered but you have to wonder why they were even asked at all.


Why did the island have the powers it have? Since we've abandoned Dharma, it's not science, so it has to be mystical. But let's say I completely abandon the idea that all of these people had mystical, post death journeys. Then, why did any of the Dharma experiments which changed the island work? Desmond had to "press the button" ... why? Oh yes, there was a discharge when he didn't. Why didn't he have to press the button before, or someone fulfill the same role throughout all time? (BTW, this is somewhat like Atlas holding the Sky up, but that's a different concept)


If the island exists within the world of the living, then what is the point of Widmore at all? He goes from cravenly wanting whatever it is the island has, to deciding to leave it alone and protect it from someone else.. what redemptive act turned him around like a top? "Jacob Talked to Me" ?? What realization would prompt that? Who knows, the audience is never told.


The random appearance of characters.


The voyage of science and the attempt at discovery.


The black rock?


The appearances of ghosts and the dead even outside of the island, and suddenly appearing in their memories and events of the past?



I had argued seriously if you look back pages ago that I felt as though there was going to be a way to address this (and I had some ideas) but the solutions they have left us with spin the entire story on it's head if I accept this conclusion. If I accept that the island was "heartbeat alive" then the real heart of the story is that we wasted 6 years for a simple solution.. Jacob could see into the past, and into the events of the future. So, what was the point of waiting, when he apparently could grab anyone to find a way to kill MIB and be done with it? If we accept this was all real, and this was the solution, it is.. well, just bad.


It's not that I don't like that answer, it's just that that answer is so "wrong" that it says to everyone who watched "sorry we floated out all the references to the bible, references to super powerful beings, temptations as to what this all was. In the end, it was just some built up super-power electrical thing and Jacob/MIB were just human guys who got stuck on a place somewhere in the south pacific who just needed some killing so other people could leave. Forget all that other stuff, none of it really mattered at all"


So, I can accept that. And then the whole show could just have a different outlook: the long con. Promised a deep, and philisophical storyline. To end with a goofball mcguffin. What a downer.


But, since the show does throw out all of those illusions, I prefer to think of it that way. :) If you enjoy the other way, that's fine, it just means that the writers had absolutely no idea of how the story would ever develop season to season and just threw darts, introducing new characters and actions and random, throwing stuff up against a wall and seeing what would stick. When it didn't stick, they scrapped it and moved on to the next thing in maybe one of the most lazy storytelling styles ever offered in a show "Don't like Nikki/Paolo? Gone! Anna Lucia? Doesn't matter! Gone! Dharma boring? Yeah, we can wipe that out too! This whole thing about a nuclear bomb? YEah, we'll pretend nothing really happened because it doesn't go where we want it to go! The giant statue on the beach? Meaningless! Who knows who erected it! Must have been before Jacob/MiB, but who cares! The terror of the black rock? What black rock! Dead people walking around in whispers and offering warnings? Yeah, just a creepy feeling, but that's our horror story element, has nothing to do with anything else! Search by outsiders to tap the resources? They have a come to jesus off camera and change their entire perspective for no reason at all! "
 

mattCR

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Originally Posted by Josh Dial



Josh. I'm willing to buy into your idea. That they referenced so many religious and other icons of faith, up tot he every end scene with the stain glass windows. But they took an interpretation of Purgatory that exists in absolutely no faith at all, and they have just decided Purgatory is LA arbitrarily filled with automotons and requires nothing but showing up.

Glad the writers managed to so badly muff such a concept in the effort to expediency after leading viewers on for so long ;)
 

TravisR

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Originally Posted by NeilO
Actually, I think they said that they are just going into "radio silence" so we can make our own interpretations of the ending for now. They may have some commentary or feature on the DVDs discussing this. They will probably come out of "radio silence" in the weeks leading up to the eruption of the DVDs on Mt. Vesuvius Day (aka August 24).


If (and it's a big if) they talk about the show when the DVDs are released, do you really think they're going to definitively say what they intended with the ending? Maybe someday they will say what they intended but I wouldn't expect it in under three months. What would be the point of letting people debate if they plan on telling everyone exactly what the ending meant? Or if they want everyone to recognize their interpretation of the ending, why not have explicitly spelled out everything inside the show so there was no question?
 

Paul_Scott

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Originally Posted by NeilO



It needs to be before 1867 because those still on the surface of the island can see the large Tawaret statue that was broken up by the arrival of the Black Rock in 1867.

Bah- immaterial.

Once you start resolving things with "the wizard made it happen", putting forth any effort on making any one specific element fit in the whole logically, starts to look really silly.
 

Josh Dial

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Originally Posted by mattCR

Glad the writers managed to so badly muff such a concept in the effort to expediency after leading viewers on for so long ;)

I don't know what else to tell ya. Cuse and Lindelof literally stated that they (the LOSTies, on the Island and in the flashbacks) aren't dead, and that the Island isn't purgatory. They said it, recorded it, and had it written down and plastered onto the internet, for all eternity. Your idea is very interesting (and I mean very, it could be a great show in the right hands), and in many ways it's better than the reality of LOST. However, it's not the way it is according to the powers that be.


Regarding the Bad Robot staff writer, it definitely looks suspect, and I certainly wouldn't change my interpretation over some nameless blog post. That being said, the so-called radio silence was self-impossed by Cuse and Lindelof--it doesn't apply to everyone who ever worked on the show. If a key grip or camera 'B' operator or Matthew Fox wants to come out and say stuff, they are free to.
 

Raymond_H

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Cuse/Lindelof with Diane Sawyer taped prior to the finale airing, but discusses some of the finale moments. Sorry if this has been posted, hard to keep track of this thread.


 

Steve Y

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That was a great video clip. Seeing some of those scenes again made me realize how much I really did enjoy the finale. (I was one of those viewers who already had all the island answers I needed going into the finale). I'm still glad that Ben got redeemed, and got to apologize to Locke for killing him. It makes sense that he wouldn't move on to the church, as I would imagine he still has some things to sort out about how he lived his life. (And to spend time with Rousseau and Alex and his father, maybe even "awaken" them)... this whole idea of the "linked purgatory" and "awakening" is really kind of fascinating to think about.


Whether or not the "Lost Writer" post is legitimate, its interpretation is almost 100% similar to my own, so I hope it's legit, because it means I gleamed their intentions. The various typos certainly don't prove it's suspect, because I've read internet posting by many well-known writers and screenwriters, and many of them are littered with rushed typos and mistakes. That's what editors are for. :)


The statues next to Christian's "holy door of holy light" look very similar to the Eko Virgin Mary statues! (Especially the one on the right, which is the same blue color).
 

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