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Lost: Season Six (1 Viewer)

mattCR

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I thought the Oceanic Six was the most open interpretation that some had forced their way on, to move on into acceptance of their position.. when they did, seemingly miraculous things happened. The wolrd worshipped them. They encountered tons of money. Their wishes were fulfilled, a child was born, a father was set to rights (Kwon), a past history was forgiven (Kate), A long lost parent suddenly re-appeared (Cheech Marin for Hurley) crimes were overlooked. Transgressions didn't matter. But as some focused on those who weren't there for whatever reason, they couldn't let go of their past.. and it was Jack and Hurley who had the great pull to go back and fetch those from the Island, they couldn't leave with out them, they couldn't move on without them.


The Monk of Evansham in the 12th century said that you could go to purgatory and there you would battle in exile to find your way back to the world that appears as it would if you were to have garnered the graces of god, and more then that, Evansham argued that there would be a compulsion in you to do right by your man in the afterlife should you have failed to do that in the the life of the body. (note: this is where catholicism really gets steeped in the difference between "Life of the Body" and "Life of the Soul"). I'm looking for a good cite on this, because I'm pretty sure this was Evansham, but I haven't taken history of religion in a long time, and everything I'm googling talks of St. Patrick's Purgatory, which is a different, but somewhat similar concept of how we struggle in purgatory to return to a life as we know it only in the eyes as blessed by god.. which is a totally different, and anymore non-canon way of looking at the stratus of where you go when you die in most Christian denominations.


But in those views, yes, they left the island. They had accomplished in a way, one set of their mission. But they could not accept the truth of their life, they couldn't pass accomplish Peter's Passage because their work was undone. In Dante's Divine Comedy - and again, also covered in the Evansham concept of purgatory, all of those who arrived at Purgatory sang aloud with Psalm 114:


"

1 When Israel came out of Egypt,
the house of Jacob from a people of foreign tongue,


2 Judah became God's sanctuary,
Israel his dominion.


3 The sea looked and fled,
the Jordan turned back;


4 the mountains skipped like rams,
the hills like lambs.


5 Why was it, O sea, that you fled,
O Jordan, that you turned back,


6 you mountains, that you skipped like rams,
you hills, like lambs?


7 Tremble, O earth, at the presence of the Lord,
at the presence of the God of Jacob,


8 who turned the rock into a pool,
the hard rock into springs of water."




Now, again, I'm pulling from Dante's inferno as his interpretation of purgatory.


But was it not the God of Jacob, as we saw our character here, who provided passage for those of a foreign tongue (those that came to talk to Richard talked in his original language, and yet, Richard understood all, as did Jacob, so all tongues were understood by him, as with Kim/Kwon) The mountains and the island "Skipped" in fact, they even used the term that it was "skipping" through time at one point, leaping from point to point.. tremble oh earth (earthquake in purgatory) as at the prescence, a rock becomes a pool (did Jack not throw a rock in the hole and it became a pool, a spring of water)


More importantly, in the Evansham interpretation, those within purgatory must find and refine their faith based on the inequities and traits of others, for "those who sin shall find redemption in the strength of others to conquer sin" Basically: everyone sins, but not everyone commits the same sin, and purgatory in that view, refines them to who they should be.


I understand, like I said, the other viewpoint, but the illusions to so many great moments within Inferno were so vivid last night that I spent a big slice after the show re-reading Inferno, something I haven't done since my sophomore year in college, and I just find it so crazy how much of it seems to appear within Lost.
 

mattCR

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Ah, bam! Found it, I'll be damned, "Bing" found it but I couldn't come up with it in Google..


http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/purgatory/01antepurgatory.html



Allegory. Canto 2.46-8
As the souls arrive at the shores of Purgatory they are singing Psalm 114 (113 in the Vulgate), which begins "In exitu Isräel de Aegypto" [When Israel went out of Egypt] (2.46-8). This very Psalm, not coincidentally, is used to illustrate a way of interpreting the Divine Comedy in a letter believed to have been written either by Dante himself or by another learned person of his age:
Now if we look at the letter alone, what is signified to us is the departure of the sons of Israel from Egypt during the time of Moses; if at the allegory, what is signified to us is our redemption through Christ; if at the moral sense, what is signified to us is the conversion of the soul from the sorrow and misery of sin to the state of grace; if at the anagogical, what is signified to us is the departure of the sanctified soul from bondage to the corruption of this world into the freedom of eternal glory. And although these mystical senses are called by various names, they may all be called allegorical, since they are all different from the literal or historical.

In fact, if you believe in the Canto as Dante implied it, then it takes a soul to lead his people from purgatory out, as Moses to the Israelites.. so, in this comparison, Jack was Moses, and he could not leave his people behind, requiring them to follow along. (Which, BTW, makes the naming of a boy "Aaron" a cute coincidence)
 

Citizen87645

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I agree with the majority here about the the island experience being real (i.e. that everyone was "heart beat alive") and that the sideways existence was purgatory after their deaths at various points in time. When I first read that some thought otherwise, I couldn't really fathom how they could think that.


But what MattCR posted earlier seems to be the heart of the issue:




Ok, and I understand that's a view of it, and I respect that view. Let me just say, that is a view I struggled with last night. But I find that view so depressing, that if I believe that is the intent, I might as well give up on the whole show and write it off as having maybe the worst finale of all time. Because if it is a mystical island with super powers, then the contradictions of what it could do and couldn't, the prescence of MiB and Jacob just makes me feel as though we propped up a mythical mcguffin that in the end means... nothing. It means the entirety of the storyline of the Dharma initiative is pointless padding we wasted seasons on. It means the attempt to find science and infertility was creepy and weird and again, meant nothing. It means that out of the whole show, we could have summed up the entire storyline in about 6 episodes and instead we suffered through years of padding.

When I first viewed the show, that was one of the thoughts that went through my mind. But it's simply the one I chose not to follow. I understand where those who follow that are. But since the show goes to great effort to put all the right illusions in names and presentation of iconic events in many religious texts, it gives me an out to explain that all of that actually meant something, that they were in fact, the trials of the spirit and so whoever arrived fits into that view.


I understand why others chose the other view. I simply can't. If I did, I'd instead post here on how we just wasted six years on a storyline which meant, in the end, nothing.

If you've been around any debate about religion or faith you've seen it come down to this. Some can't imagine life without faith in something higher, need it to live; others feel faith amounts to intellectual suicide and can't imagine going through life that way. The debate about the Lost finale seems to mirror these perspectives quite closely, and, as others have pointed out, there's not going to be much convincing going on if the underpinnings run to those levels. Basically, MattCR needs his interpretation to enjoy the show and I doubt any of us who disagree with his viewpoint would want to take that away from him, if it is so fundamental to his appreciation of the show.
 

ToEhrIsHuman

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Originally Posted by EricW


if The Island was purgatory, then did the Aaron and the Kwon kid exist, or are they as fake as Jacks' kid in the flash-sides?

Ji Yeon was conceived on the Island, so no...she would never have existed. Aaron, on the other hand, would have died with his mother in her eighth month of pregnancy. Therefore it would make sense that he was at the church as a newborn.


Just as an aside...I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere, but the church was the Lamp Post (i.e. the same church), was it not...also, the same church as Christian's original service after the O6 returned? That was my interpretation at any rate.


Also, I believe that Jack's wounds from the confrontation with Flocke mirror (i.e. were identical to) those he sustained in the supposed O815 crash. If I'm not mistaken, the knife wound Flocke inflicted is the same one Kate stitched up in the Pilot episode.
 

ToEhrIsHuman

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Originally Posted by Malcolm R


I would have SOOOOooo loved seeing Nikki and Paolo in the Flash Sideways being held up at customs @ LAX for diamond smuggling, and then under arrest by Sawyer for murder. They would have missed joining all at the church because they were in the joint, heh. Missed opportunity by Darlton.
 

Jeffery_H

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Originally Posted by Josh Dial




They didn't say it because it would have been incorrect. 95% of the questions were answered by the end of the finale. For a portion of that 95%, there are a few different "takes" (see the debate between Matt and everyone else), but they *are* there.


Seriously, ask me a question, any question, and I'll show you the answers, complete with episode references. If you ask one of the questions to which I feel there is no answer, I'll write as much, and perhaps one of the other posters will offer one forward.

I don't think you can say "the debate between Matt and everyone else" because there are many that share that view point, if not here then certainly on other sites. The Lost fan sites are on fire with a lot of this and his view certainly is not a minority view by any means, just another view that is no less than others. In fact, if you read my posts, I am not decided on which way to view it as it seems a lot can be taken to be purgatory all the way through if you look at it that way. For me, I am very much a FAITH based person in real life and hope that others will find their way too somehow just as Jack was turned to faith at the end. That is why I can see it both ways very much so and think that is why the writers did leave it that way for discussion and how ones own beliefs can make it a show for them without giving 100% absolutes on every little detail.
 

Jeffery_H

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Originally Posted by Cameron Yee

I agree with the majority here about the the island experience being real (i.e. that everyone was "heart beat alive") and that the sideways existence was purgatory after their deaths at various points in time. When I first read that some thought otherwise, I couldn't really fathom how they could think that.


But what MattCR posted earlier seems to be the heart of the issue:




Ok, and I understand that's a view of it, and I respect that view. Let me just say, that is a view I struggled with last night. But I find that view so depressing, that if I believe that is the intent, I might as well give up on the whole show and write it off as having maybe the worst finale of all time. Because if it is a mystical island with super powers, then the contradictions of what it could do and couldn't, the prescence of MiB and Jacob just makes me feel as though we propped up a mythical mcguffin that in the end means... nothing. It means the entirety of the storyline of the Dharma initiative is pointless padding we wasted seasons on. It means the attempt to find science and infertility was creepy and weird and again, meant nothing. It means that out of the whole show, we could have summed up the entire storyline in about 6 episodes and instead we suffered through years of padding.

When I first viewed the show, that was one of the thoughts that went through my mind. But it's simply the one I chose not to follow. I understand where those who follow that are. But since the show goes to great effort to put all the right illusions in names and presentation of iconic events in many religious texts, it gives me an out to explain that all of that actually meant something, that they were in fact, the trials of the spirit and so whoever arrived fits into that view.


I understand why others chose the other view. I simply can't. If I did, I'd instead post here on how we just wasted six years on a storyline which meant, in the end, nothing.

If you've been around any debate about religion or faith you've seen it come down to this. Some can't imagine life without faith in something higher, need it to live; others feel faith amounts to intellectual suicide and can't imagine going through life that way. The debate about the Lost finale seems to mirror these perspectives quite closely, and, as others have pointed out, there's not going to be much convincing going on if the underpinnings run to those levels. Basically, MattCR needs his interpretation to enjoy the show and I doubt any of us who disagree with his viewpoint would want to take that away from him, if it is so fundamental to his appreciation of the show.

Being a man of faith myself, I have certainly been in discussions of religion as you point out so I know what you are referring to. For most religious people, it is a feeling within themselves they have. It can't really be explained, but as most would tell you that are Christian is it would be a part of them even if they never were introduced into a religion from birth. In other words, they just have this feeling within them that there is something else larger than them, they are not bound by the physical plane of existence, they can be more than what they are if they tap into that feeling, etc. A common misconception, to use your own words, "intellectual suicide", which shows how little exposure they have had to religious people. It is an enhancement to us, not something that blunts or dulls us in any way. One of the things I often point out is you can't prove many things life, such as love. Yet people will try to put that into words and say that it is a feeling. Then I say, bingo, that is the same way religious people say about faith, it is this feeling.


So I know where you are coming from because it does come down to this. It is just a divide and always has been since the beginning of time and won't change until the end of time.
 

Paul D G

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I can't tell you how many boards and comments I've seen tonight with people complaining about the lack of answers to certain things (ie Polar Bears) amongst other things. I would strongly encourage people to browse through the Lostpedia which is an amazing document of everything LOST.


Like this page which lays out (cleanly and color coded) what mysteries have and haven't been answered or resolved: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Portal:Mysterious


ex:

Polar Bears : Resolved

Supply drops : Unresolved...


(and they didn't all die in the plane crash, dammit)
 

Paul_Scott

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just found an interesting post by someone claiming to be one of the Bad Robot writing staff


http://lostmediamentions.blogspot.com/2010/05/someone-from-bad-robots-take-on-finale.html


I have problems with some of it- especially the first half discussion dealing with the resolution of the Island events. There is just way too much this writer seems to see as self evident, that was either never explicitly introduced, or clumsily introduced/embellished at a point when the series should have been in a full out third act resolving mode. You don't leave barrels of exposition and thematic metaphors to be introduced in the climax for Petes sake.


I find his comments a little more helpful clarifying the sideways narrative device- and more specifically the 'rules' to it which are only loosely implied (to the confusion of quite a few viewers apparently).

I may have to re-watch it to see if Christian actually spells out that this specific group needed to awaken together so that they could move on en masse. Looking back, I think there may have been something said to that effect, but it got obscured in the moment for me.


Still not real crazy about the bait and switch this series makes. They can't close the sale on the sci-fi aspects they originally sold the series to the viewers on, so instead they come down defintively on the side of faith which conveniently includes plenty of room for arbitrary, make them up as needed, rules to resolve all kinds of sticky plot points.
 

Ronald Epstein

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Still not real crazy about the bait and switch this series makes. They can't close the sale on the sci-fi aspects they originally sold the series to the viewers on, so instead they come down defintively on the side of faith which conveniently includes plenty of room for arbitrary, make them up as needed, rules to resolve all kinds of sticky plot points.

Exactly. Then, the show's creators say they will no

longer talk about/answer questions about the finale
from this point forward. As Church Lady would say,

"How conveeeeeenient."


The more I think about it, the more I am realizing

that some of what we saw the past 6 years was

arbitrarily thrown together and that the writers were

aware that much of it would never be able to be
explained.


In a way, I understand. It's difficult to conceive

a show like this not knowing ahead of time that

it would go on for 6 long years. There was never

a blueprint in place that mapped out this long journey.

Basically, the show was written as it went along.


The show's creators, meanwhile, had to offer

some sort of hope to the fanbase that they were

not investing all this time in the show without getting

answers. The reality was, there were going to be

a lot of loose ends because there were stories that

were mere "experiments" that didn't quite work out
as planned.


Let's face it -- the writers made a lot of mistakes
along the way -- and this was admitted by the show's

creators. There was Nikki and Paulo who probably
were an idea conceived in good faith but then the

writers suddenly realized how unpopular they were

with the fans. Then there was Mr. Eko who the
writers had planned to make a major character but

in real life, the actor wanted off the show. Thus,

everything that happened to that character could

be considered a waste of time as his storyline was

never fulfilled.

The character of Anna Lucia never quite anywhere

and except for providing an emotional journey for

Hurley, the same could be said for Libby.

Why was it important to kill Smokie? What would

MIB have done if he had escaped to the mainland?

That's one of the most important questions that I am

not sure was even answered.

In the end I don't think that anyone associated with

the show really knew what the island was other than

a cool place to make as a setting for a TV series.


On the positive side, I do feel that LOST was a

highly entertaining series. Despite its flaws, it did

manage to provide some brilliant storytelling with

some remarkable twists. When loose ends were

finally tied they managed to bring many events of

past seasons together quite neatly. I believe the

questions that were not answered were merely
frustrated ideas that were thrown into the mix in

hopes that they would go somewhere, but didn't.
 

NeilO

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffery_H

As I have said before, I can see both sides to this and mattcr does have a view which some others may share. Not everyone has to see things your way and it does not make you correct in anything because it is open and can be seen in different ways. It is as simple as that.
To my surprise, this morning I read one of the professional TV critics of the Washington Post agreeing with the purgatory theory. Even though he gets paid to do this it doesn't mean he is correct, but it does show that there is healthy room for debate.
 

Greg.K

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Originally Posted by Craig_Ehr



Also, I believe that Jack's wounds from the confrontation with Flocke mirror (i.e. were identical to) those he sustained in the supposed O815 crash. If I'm not mistaken, the knife wound Flocke inflicted is the same one Kate stitched up in the Pilot episode.

I watched the enhanced pilot episode prior to the finale and made this same observation.


The cut that Kate stitched up was on his other side, higher and only appeared to be skin-deep.


The stab wound inflicted by MiB was much more serious.


Still, it was another interesting bit of synchronicity between the pilot and the ending.
 

NeilO

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Originally Posted by Greg Kettell

The cut that Kate stitched up was on his other side, higher and only appeared to be skin-deep.
The stab wound inflicted by MiB was much more serious.


Still, it was another interesting bit of synchronicity between the pilot and the ending.
And Jack referred to his original wound and Kate's stitching of it by talking about his 'counting to 5" fear method.
 

TonyD

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Originally Posted by Craig_Ehr Even though he gets paid to do this it doesn't mean he is correct, but it does show that there is healthy room for debate.
Bookmarked thanks.


Also Craig the church was absolutely the same place as seen before several times during the run.

and Jacks fatal injuries appeared during the course of season 6 in the "flashsideways" including the stab wound and the scratch on his neck.

Fatal stab was Jack's front right first ep cut was on his left on his back.


btw what is this bait and switch, i'm not seeing it.
 

Jake Gove

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This is for MattCR, from the link posted above. It's from someone who works for the production company Bad Robot, that produces Lost:

Good stuff on here! I can finally throw in my two cents! I've had to bite my tongue for far too long. Also, hopefully I can answer some of John's questions about Dharma and the "pointless breadcrumbs" that really, weren't so pointless ...

First ...
The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

Note: there's more to the post, I just posted the relevant portion, relating to the fact that ONLY the sideways world was purgatory.
 

Nelson Au

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Paul, Thanks for the link to the Bad Robot writer's comments. I kinda wish I didn't read it, but I thought it was a good post. It helped me understand the Dharma Initiative. I don't see a bait and switch either. They were simply another element on the island, like Widmore.


As I recall, there was a scene between Jack and Locke about faith verse science. It will be interesting to someday sit and re view the entire series. It might become clearer without the long breaks between seasons.


The comments and differing view points, well 2, and the disappointment to a degree about some answers not being answered reminds me of the reaction some people had after watching the finale to The Prisoner series. The original Patrick McGoohan version. I won't say more to avoid spoiling that.
 

Holadem

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Originally Posted by Josh Dial


You are quite correct that the sideways stories had nothing to do with the central conflict, and that it didn't have anything to do with the narrative on the Island at all. In fact, I would say we should all be surprised that not a single member of this forum pointed out that the sideways universe have no central conflict at all. The fact that it was completely devoid of all light vs dark conflict, and instead replaced by the equally old (in terms of story-telling) conflict of man vs. himself, should have tipped us off; but it didn't. The change of conflict in the sideways reality is, in itself, a clue. A clue that we all missed, to be honest.


The light versus darkness conflict was and is still central to the entire show. It was just set aside for the epilogue. Maybe 'set aside' isn't correct: 'left behind' is better.


I can definitely see why some people wouldn't like that the epilogue was 6 months long, and that it took up 50% of every episode (give or take). That is an artistic choice that is perfectly reasonable to object to. However, I definitely don't agree when people say answers weren't given, or large pieces of the story were dropped/ignored, or that the central theme was cast aside.


Well, it diminishes it, a great deal. When you think all those events are related then find out that they are not, it diminishes the thing you thought they were related to. That thing, the Island stuff, turns out to be... just that. And then to add insult to injury, we have the series finale basically telling us, implicitly AND explicitly (thru Desmond) that all that stuff ultimately doesn't really matter anyway. It does matter.


BTW, I have no problem being mislead. Deception is inherent to every twist, and I don't mind it as long as it's fair. And here it was fair enough I think (I don't have a problem with the underwater shot of the Island for example.)


The problem with this twist is that unlike previous one ("We have to go baaaack!!!" or the UnLocke reveal,) it actually subtracts from the material, rather than adding to it. It removes an entire dimension from that S6 narrative and shrinks its scope from what was suggested, unlike the previous twists which did the opposite. In that sense, it is deflating.


On the other hand, of course it did obviously and literally add another dimension to the series, the purgatory. In doing so, it continues the pattern of expanding the scope of the series: we started with present time and flashbacks, then flash-forwards, then proceeded to actually move the present through time, and then fragmented that present among multiple characters by having them in different time periods, and finally to the flash-afterlife.


But again, while the show acquired a new dimension, the central narrative didn't. And because for an entire season they made us believe that it did, that central story now seems smaller.


Last, S6 is like Through the Looking Glass writ large: flashes to a time/place that ends up being completely different from what we thought.

TTLG quietly used that gimmick for two hours to unexpectedly answer what was perhaps the oldest question of the series, one that is prompted even by the mere premise of the series: Whether they will ever get off the Island.


In contrast, the flash-afterlife took an entire season of intense speculation, and turned out to be the answer to a question that no one was asking: what happens after they die.


I suppose the producers and the fans who really liked it would re-characterize that question as "how does it all end" -- which certainly was a question everyone was asking.


I am reminded of Locke and Eko's conversation in the hatch, when Eko wanted to start the story of how he found the book with the missing Dharma footage from the beginning, and then started with "Long before Christ,..." or something like that; and Locke said "when you said you wanted to start from the beginning, I guess you really meant the beginning."


Well, in answering the question of how it all ends, I guess they really meant The End.


--

H
 

Josh Dial

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That article by the staff writer was great. His (I'm assuming the writer is male) description of the Dharma Inititiave is virtually the same as what I've said many times, including way back when we were first introduced to them: they are nothing more than another group in a long line of people brought to the Island (though at the time, we didn't know of Jacob, and I referred to "the island" as being the entity that brought them there).


It's like I said before: I absolutely have no issue with people not liking the show, or not liking aspects of the show, or not liking specific episodes, or not liking the ending. That is personal opinion, and opinions are fine. However, saying there were no answers, and worse, saying the lack of answers is why you disliked things, is just plain wrong. Personal opinion doesn't factor into that.


From that article, I particularly liked the part about JJ Abrams' ending, and how they never changed it, even after all those years. That's good stuff.
 

Josh Dial

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Originally Posted by Holadem

The problem with this twist is that unlike previous one ("We have to go baaaack!!!" or the UnLocke reveal,) it actually subtracts from the material, rather than adding to it. It removes an entire dimension from that S6 narrative and shrinks its scope from what was suggested, unlike the previous twists which did the opposite. In that sense, it is deflating.

Appologies for two posts in a row (though the way this thread moves, it probably won't be).


Holadem, I think I finally understand what you are saying, thanks! I can definitely see why some people wouldn't like that--how they added another layer, and then removed it in one fell swoop. I don't agree, but I can see that side of it for sure. I also still don't agree that the show wasn't always about characters, but I guess we differ on that, too.


Regarding the deflating of the sixth season itself, I think the reason I don't have any problem with it is two-fold: first, it was only one season, and it wasn't even that many hours when you subtract episodes like "Ab Aeterno" and "Across the Sea." If all of the flashBACKS were revealed to be something totally different, then I would be stomping mad, because that was definitely a show-defining technique. Second, it tricked me. It tricked me and there were clues (like, as I wrote above, the total lack of light vs. dark conflict) I just simply missed. The show tricked me and I liked it, so I forgive them :)
 

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