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Lost: Season Six

Discussion in 'TV Shows' started by TravisR, Nov 19, 2009.

  1. Josh Dial

    Josh Dial Producer

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    It was definitely a cheat of sorts. Though, to be fair, we were shown ruins of things that were there before the 815 crash, so we were shown the island literally without the LOSTies; in the end, the sideways purgatory really was the LOSTies without the island.
     
  2. Lou Sytsma

    Lou Sytsma Producer

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    Can't fathom how anyone can postulate how the time spent on the island was all purgatory but hey whatever floats your boat.


    It was their life experiences together on the island that powered the shared creation of the sideways universe. To believe that perfect strangers with zero connections could generate the whole shared experience of 6 seasons of the island and then the sideways universe is a bankrupt concept. It was the emotional connections made while they were alive that provided the fuel for their shared afterlife moments.


    Anything else is a diminishment of what the characters lived through together so they did not have to go beyond death alone.
     
  3. mattCR

    mattCR Executive Producer
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    Like I said, I have no problem with those that see it a different way. A few thoughts to these though: First, the "Flash Sideways' is not a second purgatory. In the Catholic, Mormon and Islamic understandings for those that profess something like purgatory it is a stage of trials and redemption to be cleansed to be prepared for heaven. The Flash Sideways has no force of redemptive acts. The Flash Sideways is not whether or not they have managed to complete the task of redemption, it is whether or not they make the choice to move on. Yes, Dante etc. are works of fiction (then again, as an agnostic, I believe most faiths are as such) but for those that profess them, God has given all of it's creations besides angels the free will of purpose to chose their acts. Once they can enter, they must accept entrance (for those that do follow Dante, etc.) So, the "Flash Sideways" was about them coming to terms with their redemptive acts and realizing that they had returned to the world as such and were prepared to move on. It is not a second purgatory. It is the passage of the doorway (to steal from St. Thomas Aquinas)
    He also points out that he is as real as those events, as are the people in the church and does so after pointing out they are dead and living is not the only state. For those that advance the idea that people are "ensouled' by a creator, Life is the passage of all enternity. To this point, these were the most important portion of the life of the soul. If you are an atheist, you can make the argument that well after death, it's all over and you're worm food. Lost never makes that argument. Lost goes to great extent to say that the afterlife is "real" and that Christians acts in death were "Real" and that dead people were "real" with them on the island. The moment Christian points out, in open terms that the people in death are real, and that their existance at that point is real, then even this gateway to heaven is a choice - a choice pointed out earlier to Desmond they do not have to make, but a LIFE CHOICE that they choose to make. Jack didn't have to walk into the church. He is not a puppet on a string. If you buy into Free Will, then Jack made the choice to walk in and move on, he wasn't compelled or forced. So, his existence in this state was also an expression of life - he had the will and ability to make a decision which made him "REAL". Without that, if you undo that, then he would just be compelled whether it was his choice or not and moved on to whatever heaven state was intended. But the show went to great lengths to say it was his choice, his matter of free will to choose to move on - Peter's Passage - to decide what would happen. Enough so that Linus chose NOT TO move on, even though he was provided the choice "come in with us" and he chose no. If he was a being without life, without being "real" or a "soul" he couldn't make that choice, there would be no choice except the choices forced on him. The moment that free will was exerted at the gateway of heaven, I can't rectify that with the idea of "well, life is a heartbeat" because it isn't defined as such, and if it is, many of the actions at the gateway (side flash) are at odds with the choices of previous season. And if the gateway is purgatory, (the flash sideways) then you have an even bigger problem: the characters are provided no redemptive action, and in fact, are informed point blank that their redemptive actions earning them passage all occurred on the island.
    I say to you this;
    And in the 1642 Counsel of Jassy (Eastern Orthodox) it is the works of those and the power of the cross that carries those from purgatory to heaven. That their acts within purgatory would be judged by the creator to advance them to heaven. Catholics view this slightly differently, allowing those on earth to pray to assist those in the trials of purgatory to help them complete them. But in the end, both of those faiths are adamant back more then four hundred years that the trials of purgatory are a part of the LIFE that is judged by the creator. Now, you can poo-poo the eastern orthodox, catholic and mormon doctrines for having that viewpoint, but if they didn't then the actions conducted by those in purgatory hoping to get out would be pointless. in fact, the existance of purgatory would be pointless, your judgment could only be heaven or hell. How many crash landed? Hmm. All those people. All running around the beach like crazy, jumping up and down, drawing signs. All washed away but 1 set of footprints.
    Again, like Sopranos, I hope the creators NEVER answer this question. I think the fact that it causes people to think about all the possibilities to be a significant positive for the show.
     
  4. Dave Mack

    Dave Mack Producer

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    matt, while i disagree with your take i would honestly be interested in your interpretation of the original cut of donnie darko if you've seen it. :)
     
  5. TonyD

    TonyD Who do we think I am?
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    I apologize for quoting the entire post....


    Jason I think you nailed it right on the bullseye except for one thing.

    That part I bolded I would delete and your blog would be perfect. I don't think they went back to the island, they went to the next place, heaven, eternity whatever you want to call it.
     
  6. Steve Y

    Steve Y Supporting Actor

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    I think we're officially down the rabbit hole with this whole "multiple purgatory" theory. If you're determined to believe it, you're still going to believe it no matter what! Fair enough. All I can say is... we'll have to agree to disagree. :)


    "MattCR, why do you find it so easy to believe they were dead the whole time?"

    Matt replies: "It's never BEEN easy!"


    Sorry, couldn't resist. :) I do like your write-ups though, Matt.


    As for the "flash sideways as epilogue" thing, it's been the #1 theory about the sideways world for months now. If you don't read tons of Lost theories on the internet, though, it makes sense you wouldn't know this. Not many people saw the "Purgatory" angle coming, however. My main fear was that our survivors would be left in the epilogue with no memory of their time on the island. When they all reclaimed their life (sorry Matt) memories at the end went a long way towards helping me accept that the two worlds wouldn't directly connect.
     
  7. Jeffery_H

    Jeffery_H Supporting Actor

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    I can see both sides of this and neither one is right or wrong and therefore can be left open to any way you want to look at it. What you and some others are overlooking is if you look at it from what mattcr is saying, read the quote above word for word and do not insert anything else. Now, think about it from that view point. Life can be meant as a broad stroke of paint, "The most important part of your life was the time you spent with these people." which means Jack did know them and spent time with them in his life, but never specifically says when or other details.


    Again, if you take a look at the movie I referenced which ended a lot like Lost, "Passengers", you will notice they were all in purgatory in the end and had to work through things on their own. What they thought was reality was not and some of the people that played a role in that reality they did in fact know in their life when they were living, but not the same as how they knew them in purgatory. As I said, the ladies mentor in the movie was someone else and it was either him or the old lady that lived next door to her that turned out to be her music teacher she had in school when just a very young girl. The people in her purgatory were all people she had known in her life and they were there to help her come to terms and move on.


    Now, take that in the same context as some others are, like mattcr and you can see it can go either way. Bottom line is it does not matter though because it is open and that is what makes it so great. We can make it out for what we want to view it as and have fun with all of this. I don't know of another show that has caused this much talk in a long time, if ever. Certainly credit goes to the writers for all this no matter what.
     
  8. Jason Roer

    Jason Roer Supporting Actor

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    Thanks so much Tony. The reason I wrote that was as soon as Christian opened the door it reminded me of the light from the cave - the light Jacob, Jack, and Hurley were to protect. It was told to us that the light is in each of us - that if the light in the cave goes out, we all die. Thus I took it to mean the light is the source of all goodness in the world. And so I saw it as poetic that the next plane of existence was to rejoin the light. And the light is contained in the heart of the island. So for me, they returned to island. Just my personal conclusion to the series.

    Cheers,


    Jason
     
  9. mattCR

    mattCR Executive Producer
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    No apologies needed! The debate is good! It's why I love this forum :) As far as reclaiming their life.. then again, I'm the one saying as life is to the show, their soul moves on :)

    And no, the show is never easy..


    But we haven't spent a lot of time debating the other way, I've spent most of the time on defense.


    Let's assume that on the island they were have-a-heartbeat alive. It was a real place on the planet earth. Let's just assume I buy into that theory. If that's the case, then how is there an explanation at all for:


    * Polar Bears,

    * The Dead walking around and talking to them and having knowledge of it when they are in heaven

    * Human beings who are semi-immortal or immortal

    * The existence of a gateway blocked with a boulder to we assume hell

    * The fact that no one could become pregnant, and those that do miscarry (which btw, is easily explained if they are in purgatory, as in purgatory you can't ensoul a body from the Guf)

    * that new places, buildings and structures seemed to magically appear on the island when needed..

    * The fact that multiple, significant murders happen here on the island, and yet, they receive admission into the afterlife so to speak, without going "down the whole" to evil.. if they are in fact, only battling their way to heaven through trials, no problem.. but if they were busy slaughtering real people, then God is awfully forgiving in a lot of sects

    * That nuclear radiation meant nothing in a few years at all. Vegetation was beautiful.


    Etc.


    I don't see how it's so easy for people to believe it's -not- the purgatory, because otherwise you imbue a place with so many open traits that go unexplained or completely reversed by where they end up that I can't get my head around it.


    But I'm glad that for all of us, it was enjoyable. Just in a different way.


    Here's what we can all agree on.. the finale spoke in a lot of different ways dependant on your viewpoint, and it did a much better job of stirring debate then almost any finale in years.
     
  10. Jeffery_H

    Jeffery_H Supporting Actor

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    I am going to say that I can see both sides of this, but for me I must disagree with most of your views. Watch the movie "Passengers" and you will find how it end to be quite similar to Lost. They too were in purgatory, but it was real life for them and they were living out their reality as a real world. Everything down to the TV, trains, planes, bars, love making, etc. were real. That does not negate any less it was purgatory in the end the same it does not for Lost.


    I do think it will be a polarizing show for those of us with FAITH and those not as that is the reflection of the writers own personal beliefs. Just like in Lost, some may find their way and some may need time.


    Also, I would like to point out something to you which I feel is important. As moderator, your terms are offensive "circle jerk". Really? You can't be more professional in your choice of words to others? You don't have to agree with anyone about your views, but at least act more like you should.
     
  11. Joe_H

    Joe_H Screenwriter

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    Last comment on this, but I also wonder how the "they were dead all along" people reconcile the fact that Christian tells Jack "These were the most important people in your life."
     
  12. Patrick Sun

    Patrick Sun Studio Mogul

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    Are you supposed to make friends and enemies in purgatory? Just wondering.
     
  13. WillG

    WillG Lead Actor

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    Sure,


    I enjoyed the finale and thought it was well done and emotional and all for the most part. But, sure, I could see why some would be left unsatisfied. The finale and last season and a half before it pretty much said take the Polar Bears, Healing powers of the island, Dharma initiative, time travel, Widmore etc. and chuck it all out the window because all of that was merely means to an end. I kind have been comparing it in my mind to the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy. Like 90 percent of what happened in The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones was meaningless considering what was the real purpose of the story. I kind of agree that the based last night's finale, the whole story of Lost could have been very condensed. I thought that with a little more backstory, last night's finale could almost have been a feature film on it's own. I had resigned myself to the fact that fans were going to get a bit hosed if they thought they were going to get everything wrapped up a while back. When time travel was introduced, my eyes started to roll ever so slightly because I thought it was the writers giving themselves a license to make up anything they wanted to resolve plot points "It's just how time travel works in this story" Then when they started to really introduce Jacob and the MiB, it became clear it was to become a quasi-religious story and they would probably begin to abandon any scientific explanations of the island.

    So, while I though the finale was satisfying from a character standpoint, coming around full circle in that regard, I can see how people can think that the overall story fell short of addressing the myriad of mysteries of the island (of course, I don't fault a story for leaving things ambiguous sometimes but there was just so much built up those first few seasons.)
     
  14. Arild

    Arild Supporting Actor

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    More importantly, it doesn't track with what we've seen earlier in the series. It. Doesn't. Track. For OH so many reasons. I'm sorry to say it, but those of you who keep clinging to that ridiculous theory just don't know your LOST.


    For example... If everyone died in the 815 crash and the Island is purgatory, or any other form of afterlife, then - what about everyone else on the island? Like Ben, Juliet, Richard and Desmond? I know, I know - "they were people Jack & Co. encountered in life and therefore they went to the same place when they eventually died"... No. Just NO.


    Because they series SHOWED us how all those people came to the island. Ben came on the submarine as a child. He didn't die. Juliet came on the submarine three years prior to the 815 crash. She didn't die. Moreover, her flashback shows she was brought there by people we KNOW had previously been on the island; specifically Richard and Ethan. So... the ONLY ways the "island = afterlife/purgatory" theory could even possibly be true is if either 1) People can come and go from purgatory as they please, or 2) The flashbacks never happened. Neither of these options make sense.


    So, again; no. Sideways Universe = they're dead. The Island = real life. This is NOT open to interpretation, people. It's as simple as that.
     
  15. Ronald Epstein

    Ronald Epstein Founder
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    Will,


    Agreed.


    I feel somewhat cheated by the finale.


    It was if they completely ignored all the mysteries and questions

    of the first few seasons and concentrated on the past two. Fans

    were led to believe that there was a scientific explanation for what

    was going on but all that was thrown in the can in favor of doing a

    faith-based arc.


    I still don't know what the Island was and perhaps that was the

    biggest question of them all.


    It was almost like the writers were throwing pasta against the

    wall for the past few years to see what would stick. They had

    an "idea" of what the show would be about but they introduced

    all sorts of storylines and characters that seemed to go nowhere.

    What was the point of the "Others?" Why did they take Walt?


    I don't know how to explain what I am feeling. All I know is

    that the show started out as being sort of an adventure where

    the characters were exploring the Island, finding ways off of

    it and meeting its unfriendliest inhabitants. There was always

    this sense that what they were experiencing was very real and

    that the mysteries they were encountering had a scientific

    explanation to it.

    Then the show became faith-based. Not that there is
    anything wrong with that. I kind of liked the Good vs. Evil

    storyline. It's just that everything that happened up to that

    new story arc just fell to the wayside.

    Then there was the finale....


    I knew an hour into the finale we weren't going to get the

    answers we wanted. It was apparent that we were being

    distracted by emotional string pulling. It seemed all the

    writers wanted us to watch were these characters rediscovering

    each other which evoked emotional flashbacks of the prior

    5 seasons.


    Again, nothing wrong with that. It was done beautifully,

    but gosh-darn-it, I was looking at my watch and saying

    to myself, "are they going to give us the answers within

    the next 15 minutes?"


    The show's creators said not all the questions would be

    answered in the finale. They should have said NONE of

    the questions would be addressed in the finale.

    I don't mean to come across as being highly disappointed.

    As I noted at the start of this, I feel somewhat cheated.
    I feel as if the creators of the show had a gameplan in mind,

    but they made up too many things along the way that they

    knew they would not be able to explain or come full-circle upon

    so they created, what for me seemed as a distraction.
     
  16. Jeff Brooks

    Jeff Brooks Second Unit

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    And the debate goes on...


    I just finished watching the finale, and I was pretty content with it. I loved the series and hate to see it end. For some reason, it seemed to end too quickly. I agree somewhat with what Ron just said.


    Please forgive me if I am asking something already covered. I guess they could not show everyone in the church. I am still confused as to why Michael was not there. But, then, that leads me to Ana Lucia, too. And why was Penny there?
     
  17. Sam Favate

    Sam Favate Lead Actor

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    Well, I liked the finale, but like some here I feel we should have gotten more answers. (Maybe some of you have answers for some of these, like what was up with the shot of the island under water in the season 6 premiere? Why did some people - Hurley and Walt and Miles - have special abilities while most did not? Why were women in the modern, post-Dharma age not able to have children on the island? Who built the statue? What was the device in the lighthouse with the mirrors?) I very much agree with Ron's latest post above.


    I think the island was a source of life-giving or life-affirming energy and men either wanted to protect it or possess it, and that was the basis of most of the battles on the island - but not the conflict between Jacob and the Man in Black. I did see some of the 2-hour recap in which Lindelof said Jacob and MIB were just men, not gods. But of course, we continue to associate MIB with Esau, Jacob's twin. There are parallels, whether the producers want to own up to them or not.


    Lots of Biblical parallels too - Hurley changing the rules is almost like New Testament vs Old (Jacob's more stringent, rules which sometimes had Jacob's heavy hand of vengeance). Jack is clearly Jesus - he sacrificed himself to save the others, took instruction from his father and was even pierced in the side.


    The idea that time didn't matter in the Sideways world was like something out of Star Trek, and I am not suggesting that is a bad thing. BTW, Lindelof's favorite series, ST:TNG has its finale exactly 16 years before Lost.


    I think the finale and the show are like good literature or good albums of music. You discuss and hash out its meaning over years, not hours. Ultimately it means whatever it means to you.


    Here is a good article that tries to make sense of it all: http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/tv/what-happened-lost-finale-explanation.php
     
  18. Raymond_H

    Raymond_H Stunt Coordinator

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    I agree with all of this, my extent of being cheated might not be at the same level as I throughly enjoyed the finale because of how it called back from the characters in previous season. It was like a sequel clip show reunion to the clip show aired before the finale.


    More than the overall gameplan ideas, I think their overall execution was all over the place. As pointed out, Matthew Fox has stated he always knew it was going to end with his eyes closing, and I felt that was very strong especially with seeing the Lapidus plane - so that execution was satisifying. I am talking more about the structure on how at least this whole season has played out, a lot of it could be classified as filler in hindsight imo. Which is too bad.
     
  19. mattCR

    mattCR Executive Producer
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    I have watched every single episode of LOST. I appreciate it differently then you do. But I find I am baffled why it is so imperative for you to view any opposing opinion as "wrong". So, let me take this to a different place.


    I have no contradiction at all with the flashbacks in relation to this being an afterlife.. in fact, I'm not at all bothered by it at all. I think it bolsters the case this WAS the afterlife, not the other way around. Think about it. You have numerous storylines about how their life went through issues - Sawyer and his seeing his parents die from being conned; Kate on the run for killing an abusive Stepfather, Jack struggling with his life, drugs in season 1, the loss of a father.


    All of these events to all of the main characters were the key signs of why they COULDN'T MOVE ON from purgatory, they were not prepared to move on to the afterlife because the were not willing to let the world go. And as for most Christian mythology, the temptation of the flesh was strong, and they were repeatedly wooed to try and stay. More importantly, the random arrivals and then hidden nature of the island also feeds into this.


    I believe Juliet was dead long before the losties arrived. As was Ben. And Richard was most assuredly dead. If "Real Life" means walking around with clearly dead people and talking to them (as happened repeatedly) then you're assumption of life for the show is very much like Christian's, that Life is but the prescence of a SOUL, not a beating pulse. In fact, I thought that point was completely re-inforced by the idea that they couldn't conceive a child.. which if they were in purgatory would make perfect sense and explain why it couldn't be handled medically... because you cannot call a soul from The Guf in purgatory.


    It also explains the appearance of the light tower, the appearance of the statue ... a dead ringer to Dante's Canto XIV, in which a man is but a fashion of things; a leg of iron, and a leg of clay, in which the leg of clay is washed away by erosion and time, only his head and stature remain.


    :)

    I understand the way you want to view it, and you can view those of us (and google, there are a TON of people who think as I do) but it's an opinion. I value your opinion. I disagree. You can disagree with my opinion, but I don't think it deserves a slap that those who believe as I do are simply "fools".

    :)



    Patrick:


    Depends on which religioius favor you are. If you believe as do several, Purgatory is for almost everyone who falls short of heaven as well as those slightly redeemed from hell (in Dante's view) .. some may spend near eternity there and, dependant on your flavor of religion, they may be there to solely tempt you to sin to lose the grace of the creator so you can fall into hell. (a common theme in many eastern Christian sects).

    Like I said, I find it very hard to see the show from the other viewpoint. I recognize you dislike mine. But again, why does this really impact anyone what I think. I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just stating what I think and that I enjoyed the show. You enjoyed the show. So, who got harmed?


    It's like this: a friend and I watched Stephen Kings' "The Stand". We both liked it. I thought it was a great story of good and evil, he thought it was a good horror thriller. Who cares. We both liked it. Why we liked it was really pointless after that. :)
     
  20. Dave Mack

    Dave Mack Producer

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    they did explain the polar bears tho. remember the zoo, cages on the other island? the dharma initiative brought them there for research. :)
     

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