Lost: Season Six

TravisR

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Originally Posted by Raymond_H
Overall, the writers as a whole were very sloppy and did a lot of story telling in the string a-long method just to fuck with the audience.


So because there was one episode where they deliberately tricked the audience with a flashback and a flash forward and another where they showed the island underwater, the writers were very sloppy and fucked with the audience as a whole? Maybe if the series was 4 episodes long, I could see saying that.


If more shows were as 'sloppy' as Lost, TV would be pretty great.
 

Josh Dial

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Originally Posted by Holadem

I wonder if those who really loved the finale can understand why some of us didn't. As in, can truly understand where we are coming from, or even relate a little bit.


It's truly strange: Not a couple of weeks ago, some of the most vigorous defenders of the series were adamant that the struggle between Jacob and MiB was central to the series. To the occasional poster who would accuse the writers of "making it up as they go along", we would get staunch defenses explaining how the central conflict of the show was laid out from the very beginning, with the backgammon game in the pilot ( I recall someone even posting a picture of Locke holding the black and white stones.)


The Incident had explicitly laid bare that struggle with that epic opening and the scenes at the statue, and this season has delved into its roots. Also, in the immediate aftermath of the bomb, we have struggled to figure out how the alternate timeline ties into that epic struggle. How that timeline relates to the Island. I mean, it obviously had to. If these people's lives intersected in real life long before they got on that plane because of Jacob, the fact that they were intersecting in that other timeline clearly meant that something, presumably Jacob/The Island, was influencing events in that timeline as well. Couldn't wait for what the writers had in store for us. Hopefully, it would all come together somehow.


Never in a million years would it have occurred to me that that timeline had nothing whatsoever to do with the events on the Island. Oh -- to be precise, it does of course. But only because it is the afterlife created by that particular group of survivors. Otherwise, nothing. It certainly does not inform the black vs white struggle that we were told was at the core of the show. It does not inform the characters, in the narrative of the on-island events of the final season.

Rather, we've spent 6 months watching what is basically an epilogue of this story during half of almost every episode, without being aware of it. All the while thinking it had something to do with what we had been repeatedly and often stridently told was the central conflict laid out since the pilot.


Can you guys understand while satisfying on a character level, some would feel cheated intellectually by this resolution?


--

H

Intellectually cheated? I don't know what you mean there.


Your description of the flash sideways as a 6-month long epilogue is great. That's exactly what it was, in retrospect. The fact that it *didn't* focus on the central light vs. dark conflict, but rather the characters themselves, was a key aspect. I think it's quite fair for an epilogue to move past the central conflict, and declare a victor; in this story, light won.


You are quite correct that the sideways stories had nothing to do with the central conflict, and that it didn't have anything to do with the narrative on the Island at all. In fact, I would say we should all be surprised that not a single member of this forum pointed out that the sideways universe have no central conflict at all. The fact that it was completely devoid of all light vs dark conflict, and instead replaced by the equally old (in terms of story-telling) conflict of man vs. himself, should have tipped us off; but it didn't. The change of conflict in the sideways reality is, in itself, a clue. A clue that we all missed, to be honest.


The light versus darkness conflict was and is still central to the entire show. It was just set aside for the epilogue. Maybe 'set aside' isn't correct: 'left behind' is better.


I can definitely see why some people wouldn't like that the epilogue was 6 months long, and that it took up 50% of every episode (give or take). That is an artistic choice that is perfectly reasonable to object to. However, I definitely don't agree when people say answers weren't given, or large pieces of the story were dropped/ignored, or that the central theme was cast aside.


Also, for what it's worth, I personally never thought the the intersection of people in the sideways universe "meant that something, presumably Jacob/The Island, was influencing events in that timeline as well." In fact, I think I specifically guessed (wrongly, in retrospect) that the sideways reality was showing us a "what-if" scenario where Jacob and the Man in Black never entered into their lives. I actually guessed that everyone was going appear happy, and then meet an untimely and sad demise. I think a lot of people saw the sideways reality as an alternate scenario, not the result of the bomb. I honestly thought (again, wrongly) that the two universes weren't connected at all, hence "sideways" as in "beside." It was only when we got to the Desmond episode that I changed my mind. Regarding the statue under the water, I figured that it was to show us "hey, in this what-if, the Island is *completely* out of the picture."


Edit: here's my comments from the season premiere:


- "I found title LA X interesting. Note that it isn't LAX, but rather LA X, with the X referring to an alternate reality (at least in comics, that's the typical usage--Marvel's amazing "Earth X" crossover series, for example). At least twice, Sawyer exclaimed "this ain't LAX!" Double-meaning, perhaps?"


- "Locke and Jack are bothing missing "baggage." Easily read into."


- I later commented on Jack's neck bleeding, and guessed that perhaps Jack will slowly come into contact with the other universe. So, I guess I didn't completely think it was a what-if...


-
 

Dave Mack

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Matt, by quoting the dialog from the show you just contradicted your point.


Christian says.


"The most important part of your LIFE was the time you spent with these people..."


LIFE.


If they DIED in the crash, they never would have had those important times in their LIFE.



And as far as I know, Dante's Inferno is just an elaborate work of fiction. It's not actually considered anything but by any Christian I know of. I have no problem looking at the flash-sideways as a sort of purgatory but the Island? Nope.
 

David Deeb

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I loved the run of LOST & most of the episodes. I was glued to my seat for 6 years as well as the finale, which for the most part, I enjoyed.

But in the end, like many, I'm left a bit frustrated in the lack of storyline resolution. So much time was spent on protecting & getting to the island by all these groups, that to have it ignored, is a bit frustrating.
I'm ok with things not being spelled out. I appreciate that approach sometimes. One of my favorite films of all time is Donnie Darko. But that is a 90:00 minute movie. Not 120 + hours with 100 characters.

If anything, LOST could have been condensed by an entire season. As much as I loved it, I'm ready to move on. I do revisit favorite films & TV series, but not sure if or when, I'll revisit LOST. It's like re-reading Stephen King's "The Stand". I did it & enjoyed it, but the chunk of life required to do it again doesn't seem worth the effort to me (at this time).

One thing is certain: the island life was "real" - it was not purgatory. The 6th's seasons flash sideways was the purgatory. I don't see how you can think otherwise.

Perhaps the "plane on the beach" in the credits creates this confusion in some. I simply saw that as "graphics" to run during the final credits - it was iconic of the series beginning. Our passengers did not leave & become the Oceanic 6 - or meet Penny, Ben, Juliet, countless Others, Whitmore, Miles and other non-flight people in purgatory. That makes no sense.
 

Jason Roer

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Dave - while you and I obviously are in the same camp about this, I think Matt's view is that "life" is just a label. That anything we experience both living and dead is part of the "life journey." So what he said is true... from a certain point of view.


I just pulled up my brown hood. :)


Cheers,


Jason
 

Raymond_H

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Originally Posted by TravisR

So because there was one episode where they deliberately tricked the audience with a flashback and a flash forward and another where they showed the island underwater, the writers were very sloppy and fucked with the audience as a whole? Maybe if the series was 4 episodes long, I could see saying that.


If more shows were as 'sloppy' as Lost, TV would be pretty great.
I listed only 2 of those but I could list more from the stupid nitpicky stuff to huge ones. I can get past them, but I can see how others cannot. It was just to show even if it was this 1 episode (Sun/Jin) that this was typical Lost writing. And yeah, I think overall the writing was all over the place and to give answers in a vague way does not correct that.


I liked the series, I really liked the finale - Holadem asked a question if people could see the other side with "Can you guys understand while satisfying on a character level, some would feel cheated intellectually by this resolution?" and yeah I can.
 

Dave Mack

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Well, I really don't think the creators were taking it that deep. I think one level of purgatory is enough. :)
 

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Originally Posted by mattCR

Christian -never- says "hey, that part, that was all a living portion of your life.." never.

Sure he does. "The most important part of your life was the time you spent with these people." You just chose to ignore that part, just like you've chosen to ignore everything else in the finale - and the series - that contradicts your pre-conceived viewpoint.
 

Dave Mack

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Originally Posted by Jason Roer

A friend on Facebook pointed me to this recap of the show a few minutes ago. It's very well written and entertaining. Give it a read if you wish:

http://bit.ly/afByGn
Cheers,


Jason

yep. and look...






there are flippin' FOOTPRINTS in the sand! I really don't think the point of the last shot is that they all died in the crash.
 

Jason Roer

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Yeah - saw that too. I suppose one could argue those are the footprints of the Sand People. After all, I'm told they travel single file to hide their numbers. :)


Cheers,


Jason
 

NeilO

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Holadem

I wonder if those who really loved the finale can understand why some of us didn't. As in, can truly understand where we are coming from, or even relate a little bit.


... Also, in the immediate aftermath of the bomb, we have struggled to figure out how the alternate timeline ties into that epic struggle.


Never in a million years would it have occurred to me that that timeline had nothing whatsoever to do with the events on the Island.


Rather, we've spent 6 months watching what is basically an epilogue of this story during half of almost every episode, without being aware of it. All the while thinking it had something to do with what we had been repeatedly and often stridently told was the central conflict laid out since the pilot.


Can you guys understand while satisfying on a character level, some would feel cheated intellectually by this resolution?
I always thought that the Flash Sideways was an epilogue of sorts to the main story on the island. I thought it was a different sort of epilogue, though. I had been thinking that it really was an alternate timeline created by the bomb in The Incident and that somehow in the end that those in that timeline would regain the experiences and reform the relationships established on the island. This is would be part of their reward for accomplishing their task on the island. With those experiences established in the new timeline they would live rewarding lives, but in this better timeline which had many improvements on their original timeline. End of story.

I am disappointed that they made the Flash Sideways a limbo epilogue, but that is apparently the story they chose to write and that's the end of that. I can appreciate it for what it is. Yes, they appeared to have misled us in how they were telling the story, but that is a valid approach to storytelling.
 

Dave Mack

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Originally Posted by Jason Roer

Yeah - saw that too. I suppose one could argue those are the footprints of the Sand People. After all, I'm told they travel single file to hide their numbers. :)


Cheers,


Jason


good one.
 

Simon Massey

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Finally got to watch it. Still trying to process a lot of it but my immediate reaction to the episode was great. I found the episode very emotional to watch as the characters in the sideways universe connected with each other esp the Juliette/Sawyer scene.


Im firmly in the camp that everything that happened was when they were alive and the only part of the show that is the afterlife is the sideways universe in S6.


I also have to say that I was watching the previous five seasons during the year as Season 6 has been on and I found a lot of answers to questions as I had forgotten in bits that had previously happened. I found a repeat viewing of the show very satisfying and I imagine I will watch it again in the future knowing what happens. Im with Josh - there are very few answers that can't be found somewhere in the show, either explicit or implied, but I also like the fact that there are some open to interpretation and discussion. IMO, the show has always done a fine balancing act of answering some questions and leaving others open - something that the final episode does very well too.


The final shot was what I expected - as soon as they said they knew what it was I expected it to be a similar shot to the first one from the pilot just didnt know how they would get there.
 

Raymond_H

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Bill Simmon's Lost finale podcast with Sepinwall and others http://espn.go.com/espnradio/player?rd=1#/podcenter/?id=5213533&autoplay=1&callsign=ESPNRADIO


Itunes link - http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-b-s-report-5-24/id254098743?i=83557744
 

Tim Gerdes

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Originally Posted by Dave Mack

yep. and look...




there are flippin' FOOTPRINTS in the sand! I really don't think the point of the last shot is that they all died in the crash.

And clearly visible to the left of the engine, below the tall trees is a blue tarp and part of a camp shelter.
 

Sean Bryan

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Matt, you forgot to highlight this part:

J: Where are we C: This is a place you all made together so you could find each other. The most important part of your life was the time you spent with these people. That's why all of you are here. No one does it alone. You needed all of them, they needed you.
 

Tim Gerdes

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Originally Posted by Raymond_H

To go back on what I hated about that Sun/Jin, is The Incident basically only meant the characters jumped time but yet as you describe it was meant to be portrayed as something more. We even got the shot from this season's opening of the Island underwater - which again was just to fuck with our minds in hindsight. I hate that.

I didn't have a problem with the way they structured that Sun/Jin episode, and I was generally very happy with the finale. But that shot of the island in the season opener really bugs me in retrospect. It is one of the few instances where the show deliberately misleads us, simply to keep us from figuring out a big reveal.

It certainly wasn't for the characters' benefit since they didn't discover it, and while I guess it was part of their manufactured reality, "life" without the Island, showing us sunken Dharma barracks and the statue seemed necessary only to keep the audience from figuring out what the sideways reality was.


And yet, if the scene had just faded to white, out Jack's window, without the elaborate pan-down, it certainly wouldn't have impacted the sideways arc, or given anything away. It was just a deliberate cheat in an otherwise excellent season, and show.
 

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