Lost: Season Six (1 Viewer)

[Nelson Au]

I like to think of that famous line from another movie, "I'm not dead yet."


I understand the bluray/DVD release will have more scenes not used in The End and more comments from the writers too I'm sure.

 

[EricW]

sorry MattCR, but i really am trying to understand what your theory - did we, the viewer, see anything that happened in the "real world" aside from the few moments on the plane before 815 crashed? once the plane crashes, and (according to you) they are all dead on the Island, is the rest of the world an extention of that construct? for example, Widmore / Abadon are in England and they hire a crew to go to the Island. at this point, are Widmore and co already dead? -> edit -> because to them, Penny is still alive. therefore they are all alive or they are all dead. if they are all dead, the the entire world is dead or a construct. is that consistent?


also did Jacob really visit Kate as a kid in the 'real world' to prepare her for a stay in purgatory as an adult? did everyone who existed on the Island outside of 815 also die in the real world? (like the Dharma Initiative, Others, etc) - like Juliet - how did she die in the real world, then get brought to the Island by "ghosts"?

 

[mattCR]

Originally Posted by Tim Gerdes



I'm struggling with your interpretation simply because we witnessed everything you describe here (the journey after death, the concept of purgatory, what happens next). The flash sideways was clearly defined as this rest stop before heading into the light.

What's confusing to me about your interpretation is that if, as you suggest, the Island represented this place after death, then why not go from the Island directly to the light, why wade through a second purgatory before reaching the final destination?


Beyond which, I feel that this was all clearly telegraphed in Christian's speech and the fact that we witnessed Jack die (not to mention other crash survivors over the last six years).


Not that the finale wasn't open to interpretation. Why did Eloise not want Daniel to move forward? For that matter, what was Eloise? she clearly knew more about the Island, alternate realities, and purgatory than anyone else. What about Michael? Is he perpetually trapped in Limbo, never to reach the sideways world and white light beyond? What happened to Eko? Who, or what exactly was David?


They were very clear, though, about what the Island was, what the flash sideways really was, and when Jack literally died, after saving the Island, and the world.

And if the Island truly was purgatory, who built the encampment clearly visible in one of those final images over the end credits? ;-)

There was no purgatory after purgatory. They completed their task. They were ready to move on. The only thing that prevented them from entering the next phase was themselves, not their own issues. They had already moved into the afterlife, they just had to find acceptance. Again, from a Catholic/Mormon/Islam mythology viewpoint, or one constructed from Dante, this is appropriate.. they had completed their task in purgatory to become worthy of entrance. Nothing holds them back, but it is up to them to walk themselves through the door. After all, with free will, they could chose to not go, as Benjamin did, it was up to them.


I have always taken Eloise to fit into the Benedictine catholic construct of the levels of heaven.. it was explained to me by a nun in the 8th grade, but again through readings from the writings of monks, etc.. the mormons also have a similar concept; your place in heaven may be assured, but how much you receive, how glorious your place is, can be determined by your works and good that you bring with you. Eloise would lose her connection with her son because he would join his celestial family, those who he had bonded with, stronger then her. She didn't want to see him go, Dante's crime of selfishness, and thus she could not enter, she couldn't abide change.


The Flash Forward was them judging themselves and finding themselves to be worthy and deserving, remembering their trials and being willing to walk through the door, ala Dante. Only once Jack had talked to Christian did he recognize his worth and judge himself so, prepared to enter.



Again, this is all my opinion, and of course, I recognize that others disagree..


As to the picture of an encampment (I didn't see that, I just saw the exploded plane) my take would still be the same: just because the trials of purgatory are over for them, it is not over for everyone. If you believe unLocke/MiB was willing to destroy purgatory, then what he was essentially saying is: only the perfect man shall pass, all others are doomed, since he would be doomed to not enter into the afterlife, nor would others.

 

[pitchman]

I'm late to the party as a result of my iTunes season pass thing...but, I have to say WOW! Awesome ending! I really loved it! I'd still like a bit of closure with regards to a few island mysteries, but knowing they'll most likely be addressed on the Blu-ray or in the Lost Encyclopedia, it's fine with me. The climactic battle was a bit of a dud, and there were a couple of not-so-hot CG effects, but everything else was terrific. The character moments, right down the line, were beautifully acted and emotionally charged. Just great, great stuff! Like Locke said to Jack, "We need to watch this again!"

 

[TravisR]

On another note, Michael Giacchino's score for the fifth season came out a few weeks ago.

 

[Cary P]

I enjoyed the finale a lot, and while I respect that some people will have their own unique interpretations, there was very little ambiguity in how it ended.


Christian's speech, the shot of the plane taking off as the last thing Jack saw (awesome scene), and the epilogue shot of the original crash site many years later in decayed ruin made it all perfectly clear - Lupitas, Kate, Claire, Sawyer, Miles, and Richard all escaped the island, Jack died fulfilling his destiny, and the season 6 sideways events were removed from normal time and reality in the afterlife.


I mean, other than hitting the audience over the head with a baseball bat and having Christian turn to the screen saying "all events on the island were real and definitely happened", I'm not sure what more the producers could have done to make the ending more clear.


And the epilogue shot of the crash site sealed it. The crash site was a ruin from an era long past, and the chapter was now closed on that part of the island's long mythology. The characters had finally moved on, but the events on the island were real and the tale of Oceanic 815 was an eternal part of the fabric of that place.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Why did Eloise not want Daniel to move forward? For that matter, what was Eloise? she clearly knew more about the Island, alternate realities, and purgatory than anyone else.

I agree that the island was clearly not purgatory and the the sideways world was much closer to that idea than anything else, while not quite being that. And Jack died on the island, watching Lepidus fly off with the remaining survivors. (Remember when those lazy, incompetent writers who had no idea where their story was going used him as a red herring and then killed him as soon as they dropped the idea of an airplane escape? )


As for Eloise and Daniel - I think she wanted her son to have the life he never had in either of the other realities - the one where she pushed towards science and denied him his art, his father and any chance of a normal relationship and the one where she shot him in the back. Neither of them is "ready". Neither is Ben. He has things to deal with, sins to expiate, part of which involves finally doing right by Danielle and "his" daughter. (Which is also something he'll greatly enjoy, of course, having something like a normal life.) That's why it isn't quite purgatory. It isn't a place about punishment, but about fulfilling old desires and working through problems. He clearly spent some time with Hurley on the island and was a good "number 2" (thus having the relationship with the Jacob figure that he had always wanted) and now was enjoying his "life" in the sideways world, even as he knew what it really was. Like Eloise. I don't suppose either of them is eager to face the moment when their loved ones have to face the memories of the "other" lives, and what their fates were. But by the time those events roll around presumably they will have spent enough "time" with them to remove much of the pain.

I like to think that Michael and the rest of the unquiet spirits were released when the island's power was interrupted. Basically Desmond and Jack between them rebooted the island, and I think a lot of things about it changed when they did so.

All in all I found the ending to be very satisfying emotionally. Intellectually I need more time to process it, but in broad outline it was easy to make sense of it all in light of the previous six years, even in the short space between Christian's revelation and the final blackout. (And I loved Kate's incredulous reaction to the symbolism of Christian's name. For me, that was one of the biggest laughs of the night. Of course, I haven't watched the Kimmel stuff yet.)

I'm happy, and very much looking forward to watching the show over from the start.

Regards,


Joe

 

[Patrick Sun]

When the series first opened with Jack's eye opening, Jack was "lost", but when he closed his eye at the show's closing, he was at peace and he was "found". Jack had come full circle in a spiritual sense.

If everyone died from Oceanic 815 in the first episode, there is simply no need to fill in so many people's backstory, even of the fantastical characters (Jacob, MiB, their mother, Richard, etc.) Having time spent on the island reduced to a 4-month pitstop/purgatory period is rather insulting to the viewers of this show. The struggle for life, love, friendship, maintaining one's humanity in the face of the developments that happened on the island is what truly enabled these characters to live an extreme, but ultimately rich, human experience in the span of a short time period, but one where every inch of their being was on alert and fully alive. For me, this is not what purgatory is about.

To embrace the theory that this show was about about the purgatory experience, it would basically mean the writers decided to fall back on the St. Elsewhere solution, and that just won't do for the audience of today. But, the writers were able to sneak in 1 season of such a solution to bring Jack's own story full circle, and as the writers used the island to reflect and reveal character's character through a series of plot development.

But if none of it (island events) "really happened" to Jack, it's a pointless circle jerk for the audience, and, for me, an unembraceable interpretation, especially in light of what Jack's father says to Jack, and his father Christian even elicits Jack's own admission of his impending death when it's the very thing Jack was struggling to stave off until his comprehension and understanding of his situation was satisfied by his own sacrifice in securing the extended human existance of those he cared about in the end, else why struggle to save and help those in need? It is the very existence of the struggle that puts value on the human experience (seeking out love, companionship, exhibiting generosity with no strings attached), otherwise, why not just commit suicide and hope there is an after-life of sorts. Because that is not a certainty, and requires faith that another plane of existence is waiting for us. Not everyone is willing to play that game of spiritual roulette at the drop of a hat, it's an opportunity that needs to be arrived at without such pretensions of having all the answers.


We only have what we have in the here and now. The characters of "Lost" all suffered through the dramatic meat-grinder, and the writing concluded with the struggle being its best reward for having fought the good fight. The show went through great pains to give its viewer a peek into the rewards of coming to grips with making the leap of faith of accepting the inevitability of death. I'm not saying it's the most ideal in my own worldview, but it's the one that the writers felt gave its viewers the most emotional closure of the characters beloved by their fans in this 6-year run, even if some of them met their demise on the island.

 

[Greg.K]

Originally Posted by EricW

sorry MattCR, but i really am trying to understand what your theory - did we, the viewer, see anything that happened in the "real world" aside from the few moments on the plane before 815 crashed? once the plane crashes, and (according to you) they are all dead on the Island, is the rest of the world an extention of that construct? for example, Widmore / Abadon are in England and they hire a crew to go to the Island. at this point, are Widmore and co already dead? -> edit -> because to them, Penny is still alive. therefore they are all alive or they are all dead. if they are all dead, the the entire world is dead or a construct. is that consistent?

Also, at one point in season 3, Ben shows Jack a video of the Red Sox winning the World Series in 2004, an event that occured after the crash. Hard to reconcile that with the idea that they all died in the crash and everything is Purgatory, unless Purgatory happens to get DirecTV.

 

[Dave Mack]

http://www.tvsquad.com/2010/05/24/lost-finale-theories-explanations/?icid=main|main|dl2|link2|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tvsquad.com%2F2010%2F05%2F24%2Flost-finale-theories-explanations%2F "..• What is the flash-sideways reality? As Christian Shephard explained at the end, the alternate timeline, in which Oceanic flight 815 lands safely in Los Angeles, is a purgatory, a collective dream, mutually created by the souls of the castaways (and a few close outsiders, like Penny), a way for them to rediscover each other before moving on to the next spiritual plane. It's also a place for the characters, all of whom have heavy baggage (and not the kind you pick up at the carousel), to let go. (Which is why those characters not ready to let go, like Ben or Michael or Ana Lucia, didn't end up in the church at the end.) Does that mean they all died? (The shots of the empty plane wreckage over the closing credits has led some viewers to infer that no one survived the initial crash.) Well, they did all die, but not at the same time. Everything that occurred on the island, including the deaths of Boone, Shannon, Juliet, Sayid, Jin, Sun and Jack, really did happen. But so did the escape of Kate, Sawyer, Claire, Miles, Frank and Richard on the Ajira jetliner; they died sometime later (hopefully, after making it to safety and living out their lives). Hurley and Ben stayed behind to run the island and also, presumably, lived out their lives, as did Rose and Bernard. In the collective dream limbo, however, time doesn't matter, said Christian, so the souls didn't meet up there until everyone was dead. (What about Desmond? Did he make it off the island? The finale seems to have glossed over that question.)... ...Without the life and death experiences of physical reality on the island, the flash-sideways world would be meaningless..."

 

[Dan Mc]

Are you a Season 3 Jack, or a Season 6 Jack?


I think this directly relates to your enjoyment of the finale. There comes a certain point when you have to realize that you're not always going to have all of life's answers explained in explicit detail, there are certain things that you just have to accept on faith. This is what Jack finally realized, and we need to realize it too. We just have to accept that the island is a very special place, and that it needed to be protected. Not even Jacob or the MIB understood completly what the island is.

The series was more about how these characters lived their lives both before and after the plane crash, and about the relationships that they built throughout their lives. And that was what the focus of the finale was. The island as a whole was pretty much a MacGuffin, and if you can accept this, you can enjoy the payoff alot more.

 

[Dave Mack]

Originally Posted by Greg Kettell





Also, at one point in season 3, Ben shows Jack a video of the Red Sox winning the World Series in 2004, an event that occured after the crash. Hard to reconcile that with the idea that they all died in the crash and everything is Purgatory, unless Purgatory happens to get DirecTV.

That just ends the debate imho.

 

[Patrick Sun]

Or "God" is a big Red Sox fan, and has them winning every year in "purgatory".

 

[NeilO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Mack (What about Desmond? Did he make it off the island? The finale seems to have glossed over that question.)

It is implied during the conversation between Hurley and Ben on the island that Hurley will find Desmond a way off the island. I don't think we have to see that to believe that it happened.


Now of course a weird thing about Desmond is that while he was being tested by Widmore he had this near-death electromagnetic experience in which his consciousness experienced the Sideways limbo construct. He misinterpreted that to be an alternate reality just as the viewers were led to believe as well.

 

[mattCR]

Originally Posted by Greg Kettell





Also, at one point in season 3, Ben shows Jack a video of the Red Sox winning the World Series in 2004, an event that occured after the crash. Hard to reconcile that with the idea that they all died in the crash and everything is Purgatory, unless Purgatory happens to get DirecTV.

Why does that matter at all? In fact, the fact that some are aware of what happens doesn't really change much at all. I assume if they wanted, they could read the daily paper.


I think some are stuck on the concept that Purgatory = some ethereal, unexplanable completely disconnected with the world place.

Meanwhile, in almost every religious view presented within the show, and has been presented as it is followed, they should be keenly aware of what's happening in the world of the living, until they can pass the threshhold that allows them to move on. This same construct was used as a temptation of Angels in "Wings of Desire" and it is used repeatedly in fiction, in which the deceased stay connected to the living, with some pulling them back, until they are prepared to accept their fate. Being aware of the Red Sox winning matters to.. who? Jack. If he doesn't want to let go. If he wants to stay.

If you want to contend "well, that's ridiculous" then why are people on the edge of heaven worried about cars, fast food chicken, a mugging, etc? Because those are still the things their mind wants them to pass through to accept the gates, one of Dante's last tests. When Dante and Virgil ascend from Hell, they are present on Purgatorio, a small island in the southern hemisphere where they have dislodged a rock to allow them to escape to the mountain which shows them the seven sins each man must overcome. Outside of referencing a southern hemisphere island, an escape with a boulder supplanting hell, men with such pride that believe they can harness all of hell at their command.. Dante's Divine Comedy acts almost like a script here (IMHO). Down to a moment where Virgil stares up to the sky to see the heavens and realize his purpose... meanwhile Jack lays out on the sand stares up sees the heavens and realizes his purpose.. after fighting with a man levels up on a crumbling mountain side who is consumed by wrath...



This was one of Dante's biggest tests, whether or not, with the face of temptation of the living, would those who are tested in spirit be able to move on. It's kind of like the book club that Juliette was in. Or those sending messages. Etc.


Like I said, I think it's great that some have the interpretation they do. I don't see why it matters at all if they were dead or alive, the trials they went through were no more real or unreal because of that fact. It'd be like going back to "Dead Like Me" and saying "I really don't care about Georgie, nothing she does matters because she's dead"


Like I said, I'm happy with how I see it, I think it answers more questions then not. For those that assume "they are living, it's the real world, etc." then too many questions seem to baffle that: what did the Island mean at all? Why can't anyone else find it, except through wild crashes? Why is it that one plane could escape without plotting a perfect course as previous seasons indicated? What about Polar Bears? Eko? Smoke Monster? Semi-immortality? All of those are easy to explain if this is purgatory. You have to accept a huge amount of "well, it's just a freakshow place" if you put it within the real world.


JMHO.

 

[NeilO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Sun

Or "God" is a big Red Sox fan, and has them winning every year in "purgatory".

The Red Sox haven't won the World Series in over 90 years. Anything else is a collective hallucination.

 

[Josh Dial]

Originally Posted by Cary P

I mean, other than hitting the audience over the head with a baseball bat and having Christian turn to the screen saying "all events on the island were real and definitely happened", I'm not sure what more the producers could have done to make the ending more clear.

Exactly. Moreover, Christian actually *did* turn to the camera and say it was all real, he just left the baseball bat behind


Your comments on the plane wreckage are spot-on. That was the perfect way to show that the 815 flight has gone the way of the statue, the Dharma stations, the Black Rock, and the countless other things we never saw; a moment of time captured in a piece of wreckage.


Also, the direcTV line from Greg is gold!

 

[Dave Mack]

Maybe we are ALL in limbo...? DESMOND! HELP!!!!!

 

[Dave Mack]

Originally Posted by NeilO

Quote:


It is implied during the conversation between Hurley and Ben on the island that Hurley will find Desmond a way off the island. I don't think we have to see that to believe that it happened.


Now of course a weird thing about Desmond is that while he was being tested by Widmore he had this near-death electromagnetic experience in which his consciousness experienced the Sideways limbo construct. He misinterpreted that to be an alternate reality just as the viewers were led to believe as well.

Oh I know. I was just quoting parts of that article. I think it's clear that Desmond got off and went and found Penny.

 

[EricW]

That just ends the debate imho.

the only thing that ends this debate is one side conceding, and that ain't going to happen.