Looney Tunes Golden Collection Volume 6--This Is The End (1 Viewer)

[Mark Lx]

yes, it's better to release older and more obscure shorts as opposed to more of the same, but the Road Runner is the best cartoon ever made in case you didn't know. Probably why they were shown over and over again on television. You see, television cartoons were for kids in general, not just for sad collectors to file alphabetically on their DVD shelf (I don't mean you).

Now the 40 or so Road Runner shorts would make a perfect sized release. I would even re-acquire the handful that have already come out. I'm disappointed that we never got a second Road Runner disc. When you look at all the obscure film and television that's now out on DVD, it's a joke we don't have a mere 40 Road Runner cartoons out in 2008 (you could say the same about Bugs Bunny of course) . Yeah, some of the gags (Road Runner) are repetitive, that's the whole point. The Coyote will always come back for more. It's stripped down, pure comedy genius, as opposed to stuff that needs to be put in to context to be understood (like that war crap).

 

[Corey3rd]

These weren't television cartoons. They were theatrical cartoons that came to television. They also didn't exclusively run with G-rated kiddie fare.

 

[Mark Lx]

Sorry, you obviously didn't read the posts. No cartoon was shown "over and over again" in theatres, they were shown "over and over again" on television and the primary target audience was children (which isn't really important, I could have said people). The Bugs Bunny/Road Runner Hour, etc. was shown "over and over" which is where the DVD consumers saw them. Yes, the reason the cartoons are good in the first place is that they were not made specifically for children. When has there been a television production in America that was made (from scratch) specifically for children that wasn't stupid and talked down to them. NEVER.

 

[Corey3rd]

I read it. You didn't write it down the way you thought of it in your head.

The cartoons were re-issued in theaters periodically. That's why we have Blue Ribbons instead of original titles. They weren't one and done.

While the cartoons were repeated plenty of times as part of the TV packages, they mixed them up. Although those bums at Cartoon Network did seem to run the same 10 cartoons for their final months on the channel.

 

[Mark Lx]

I see.

 

[Paul Miller]

What I'm kind of surprised about is the lack of commentaries on this set compared to previous sets...

 

[rampagingsloth]

I'm worried about future releases by Warner Brothers. Ya, I've loved the Golden Collections so far (haven't gotten vol. 6 yet) and they've done a great job with restoring the cartoons and not editing them but now I wonder what the next sets will be like. It would have been better for them to release the cartoons by year like the Popeye series (which WB also distributes). That series has had some "offensive" war era cartoons included, too, without editing. If the Looney Tunes series had been done by year then buyers would have gotten popular cartoons along with more obscure ones (just like the GC sets) and certain cartoons like "Tin Pan Alley Cats" could be included in a special "vault" section like is done in the Walt Disney Treasures series (I was surprised Disney even did that). And series like Bosko could be avoided by non-completists and non-collectors. Maybe WB should offer their offensive 11 cartoons and others that are sort of bad (Inky) in a special mail-order-only 2 DVD set. That would minimize complaints.

What bothers me is WB's crappy handling of the MGM cartoons. The Tom & Jerry sets mostly aren't restored and some cartoons are edited! That's inexcusable. On top of that, they act like Tom & Jerry and Avery's Droopy cartoons are the only ones that exist. If you go to a site like the Big Cartoon DataBase (DataBase of Cartoon Classics!) and search under Character for "Barney Bear" you'll see a load of great cartoons that need to make it to DVD. You'll also notice that MGM had other directors like Rudolf Ising, Dick Lundy and Preston Blair and other funny characters like the Donkey. And if you search further you'll find some Droopy cartoons directed by Michael Lah. Why has WB done such a bad job with these cartoons? I'm glad I still have my Happy Harmonies laserdisc boxed set so I can watch some of the Barney ones. Hanna-Barbera also directed some great cartoons that had nothing to do with Tom & Jerry. WB needs to start over with the MGM cartoons and release them like the Popeye ones, by year. And no editing! "His Mouse Friday" isn't going to kill anybody who watches it, neither will Mammy-Two-Shoes.

I don't think releasing character sets would work for Looney Tunes. First there'd be huge double-dipping. Second, what about cartoons with Bugs *and* Daffy, which sets do they go to? Foghorn with Sylvester? And what about the Three Bears? There were only 5 cartoons with them. The ones with Bugs and a talking Wile E. Coyote? Third, some characters ain't that popular. The Goofy Gophers are some of my favorite cartoons. Good luck selling a DVD set of just those guys. I think that idea works better with the Disney shorts because typically those cartoons open up with a title card that says in big letters that they're Mickey Mouse cartoons or Donald Duck cartoons. Anybody can organize those ones.

Anyway, I guess I'm saying I'm a hopeful yet fearful cartoon fan/collector. One more thing, I want the more recent theatrical Looney Tunes ("Box Office Bunny") to show up on a DVD set at some point. I never got to see that new Road Runner/Coyote cartoon "Chariots of Fur" in the theaters. Here's hoping.

 

[David Rain]

I don't think there's a way to please everyone. People will complain about which characters are included, which are skimped on, which years are represented, etc.

If you release them by year then that would indeed involve double dipping which I believe they've said they're going to avoid. Plus there's no telling how many were produced in one year. That might lead to huge, high-priced box sets. Those simply won't sell to casual fans and family viewers.

I don't see what's wrong with character-themed sets. You can purchase only the ones you like and I think they would do very well with the Wal-Mart crowd who are just wanting their favorite characters in sets. Yes, less popular characters would get left by the wayside but those could be packaged together in their own special sets aimed at collectors.

There are more than enough shorts left of the major characters to fill up themed releases for each of them. Bugs & Porky are prime examples of characters who could easily fill multiple box sets devoted to them. The Bugs & Daffy duo cartoons could be put together in the same way. I'm still waiting for Foghorn Leghorn.

There are LOTS of options with regard to character-themed sets and I hope that's exactly where they go. If we want to continue to see these cartoons remastered and released properly then it has to be done in a way that SELLS.

 

[Joe Lugoff]

I think even in the peak years, there weren't more than 40 a year. They really should have done these chronologically in the first place, as "Popeye" and "Woody Woodpecker" were done (and "The Three Stooges," now).

It was a big blunder. They could have skipped the early "Bosko" years and started around 1938 or so. It would have been fantastic, and we'd all be sure of getting all of them. Oh, well, maybe that's how it went in some parallel Universe ..............

 

[Ruz-El]

Wasn't the chronological question asked in a chat? I seem to remember them saying that they wanted to get these out sooner then later because of demand, so they were being issued based on the toons restored. some older ones being more problematic would of held up all the releases. Aside from the obvious commercial reasons.

I'd like to see these continued with a character themed disc and a random assortment disc 2. The Spotlight collections were basically the bugs bunny disc and a second random one from the Golden collections weren't they ( I never payed much attn to them )? At any rate, it's a good compromise. People can get a collection of character based toons, and look at the second disc as a bonus, or vice versa if it's a character you hate. It could probably be priced about the same as a new release movie.

Extras would probably be skint, but the extras are already getting skint based on vol 6. That could be another reason to ditch the golden collections. Cheaper to dump toons on a DVD then produce new documentaries that would start tripping over the previous release sets.

My two cents anyways. Provided they keep releasing toons without doubel dipping, I'll be happy.

 

[Joe Lugoff]

We're going in circles here, but the problem with character sets is, it's obvious the Bugs Bunny set, and probably Tweety and Sylvester and Road Runner, would be the biggest sellers, but opinions vary so widely on the other characters. I personally like Foghorn Leghorn and it would be one of my most favorite sets, but I know others dislike that character -- wheras, I would only get Pepe LePew and Speedy Gonzales because I'm a completist.

That's why I think chronological would have been the best way to go, because each set would have something for everyone.

If they had come out with two years in each set, two sets a year, they'd be almost through by now!

 

[rampagingsloth]

Exactly. Certainly Bugs, Daffy, Sylvester & Tweety, Road Runner would sell. Probably Porky, too. But what of the others? If you're worried that WB would tap out over poor DVD cartoon set sales then you'd get maybe 5 sets. Then nothing. Speedy would sell less,Pepe, Foghorn, Goofy Gophers, Sniffles, Hubie & Bertie, WB would become convinced that nobody was interested in cartoons anymore (wrong but sales would look that way). Others don't have enough for their own set. Which rolls back to what do you do with them? Wolf & Sheepdog are great cartoons, do you include them with Road Runner? They're not Road Runner cartoons, they're not even Coyote cartoons. What do you do with the Little Brown Dog and Claude Cat ones? Daffy/Porky combo cartoons, are those Daffy cartoons or Porky? Does WB double-dip them in both sets (a Daffy set and a Porky set), are there enough Daffy/Porky cartoons for a whole separate set? The ones with Porky and Sylvester, where do those go?

The best sellers (Bugs, Daffy, Road Runner, etc.) have to be spread out thin enough to force sales of the one-off and obscure cartoons in combined sets. I'd think that a Sniffles/one-off set would sell much less than a Daffy/one-off set, right? So either it's random (like they did with the Golden Collections) or chronological. The only other way to do it is mail-order Time/Warner style where you get one set mailed to you a month and you either keep it and pay for it or you send it back, that could be done by character or director or whatever. Or do it chronological in a new Blu-Ray series. But however it's done, no censoring and no deletions!

 

[Joe Tor1]

Funny, I had this same exchange verbally with a friend recently. Plain and simple: Chronological Bugs, Daffy, or Porky, would probably sell well. Chronological Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies would not.

No one save the most dedicated of us would buy the first set of a potentially VERY long-running series that begins with Bosko (folks are complaining about him NOW!)

And, if a series of Chronological Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies were to miraculously reach completion (I cannot imagine it WOULD, given the popular series that have already been “abandoned”!), I doubt even I would be picking up the volume that featured Bunny and Claude, Rapid Rabbit, and Merlin the Magic Mouse – though, oddly, I wouldn't mind Cool Cat so much! …I’d have a REAL problem getting through all those Daffy/Speedys!

A possible compromise would have been a disc of Chronological Bugs (or another “series” character) paired with a disc of Chronological Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies exclusive of a star character that might also be collected in chronological series (so no double dipping occurs over the life of the series) – but folks would find reason to complain about that too!

As imperfect as the “system” of the Golden Collections might have been to all of us in different ways, according to our own bias (and I, too, am not without bias) it was probably the best way it could have been done! It somehow managed to give everyone SOMETHING they wanted, even if it wasn’t EXACTLY as they wanted it.

…And now that said “system” is done, we have the prospect of double-dipping to fear, despite what anyone says to the contrary.

 

[Joe Lugoff]

As far as Chronological Looney Tunes goes --- it's true, it shouldn't start in 1930 -- as I said, 1938 might be a better starting place.

Also, it should end in 1964 -- I doubt any sane person would spend money for a set of those post-1964 cartoons.

I do think the very words LOONEY TUNES (they can leave the Merrie Melodies name off) would be a strong enough selling point, especially since every set from 1940 on could prominently display the words BUGS BUNNY with his face smiling out at us.

But it's a moot point --- it's too late now! I'm just saying, that's how I would have done it if it had been up to me.

 

[rampagingsloth]

I agree that it's too late now (barring a reset with a new Blu-Ray series) but I don't think some people understand how "chronological" works. Supposedly a Porky character set would sell, yes? Well, looking through Beck's "Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies" book, 1937 is full of early Porky cartoons. It also has "Porky's Duck Hunt" with Daffy along with a few obscure cartoons - 36 cartoons. 1938 is the same - 40 cartoons, mostly Porky (WB's first real star) along with some great cartoons like "Porky in Wackyland" and "The Daffy Doc" and a Bugs cartoon. 1939 has 44 cartoons with a Bugs cartoon, Sniffles first appears and more Porky and Daffy. From 1937 on there are no years without at least one of the big three characters prominently represented.

So, if "character sets" is the ticket, the example years above are mostly Porky with a bit of Daffy along with some one-offs. Just like if you had a disk of Porky and a disk of one-offs, just a different (correct) order. By 1940 you have 40 more cartoons, the first "real" Bugs cartoon, more Sniffles, and Elmer shows up. It only gets better after that. Blu-Rays hold a lot more than DVDs so the first set could be like the first Popeye one, the largest and it could be 1937-1940 (or 1941), all chronological, and since it's mostly Porky and Daffy it could be viewed as a character set of Porky and Daffy plus some other cartoons and the emergence of Bugs and Elmer. 1941 has 40 more cartoons, some classic ones like "Hollywood Steps Out", "Elmer's Pet Rabbit", "Tortoise Beats Hare" and Inki and a couple "offensive" cartoons for a special vault. 1942 is where I'd say that the familiar cartoons first start showing up like "Bugs Bunny Gets The Boid", "The Dover Boys", "The Hep Cat", "A Tale of Two Kitties" (Tweety's first cartoon) and "My Favorite Duck" (Daffy driving Porky nuts).

By then *every* year set is an automatic combined character set of Bugs/Porky/Daffy along with new series and characters like Sylvester with Tweety (1945), Pepe Le Pew (1945), Foghorn (1946), Road Runner and Coyote (1949), Hubie and Bertie, the Goofy Gophers, etc. And it would be harder for someone to complain "Why did they include an entire disk of musical cartoons?" because they would never be arranged that way.

I mean, aren't the Popeye sets selling? They're all black & white (minus 3) and many of those ain't near as funny or well-known as WB's cartoons and nobody seems to complain about those. So you eat probably one big set of early, mostly b&w WB cartoons and everything after that gets better and better until you get to the '60s. There's no advantage to grouping them by character once you get past Bugs, Porky and Daffy. Each character after them is less popular and less popular + a disk of one-offs and minor characters would sell even *less*. I love all the WB characters but most people, for every guy who likes Foghorn or Pepe, there's another who couldn't care less. I know people who don't like Road Runner cartoons. But chronological spreads the big three out over the entire collection and includes the lesser ones. Everybody wins, especially WB.

Look at the MGM offerings on DVD so far. Tom & Jerry, and Droopy. Big whoop. Where are the Barney Bear cartoons? He was one of their main characters and those cartoons got really funny. But he's not that popular. So we get *none* of them. A chronological series would fix that. It would also get us the Screwy Squirrel and George & Junior cartoons and MGM's funny one-offs.

 

[Joe Tor1]

Not necessarily a bad idea… a pretty good one, actually. But, the complaints would immediately kick in that it wasn’t truly “chronological” unless it began at the beginning.

I think “chronological” only works for a given series (and not an entire studio’s output), as has been the case with Donald Duck and Popeye. In fact, Popeye is a great example of my point. A “chronological” Popeye seems to be doing fine so far… but I don’t think a “Chronological Max Fleischer” (that just included Popeye as part of the greater whole) would do all that well outside of animation enthusiasts.

It’s too late for true “chronological” Bugs, Daffy, Porky, Tweety, etc. sets – because the double dipping would tick us all off!

It’s gonna be interesting to see what comes next…

 

[Corey3rd]

it comes down to volume. You're still talking 1,000 cartoons and a dozen plus boxsets. Are you really going to have enough sales with the decay curve that always hits projects like this?

The transfers of the cartoons will continue because Warners needs to be able to market these to Hi-Def TV at some point.

 

[Joe Lugoff]

"rampagingsloth" said it perfectly -- yet it seems the argument is continuing.

As for not beginning at the beginning, even though good reasons not to have been pointed out -- do you realize what a small percentage of people would complain about that? Besides, it wouldn't have to be called "Looney Tunes - Vol. 1" -- it could be called "Looney Tunes, 1938-39" ... and the next set could be "Looney Tunes, 1950-51," for all I care -- and that would leave open the possibility that some day they might get around to "Looney Tunes, 1930-31," if they want to.

Everything doesn't have to be "just so" ... there are many options here.

As an example, the AFI Film Catalogs did the 1960s before the 1950s.

I think "Looney Tunes" are much too important in the history of animation -- probably the greatest series of cartoons of all time -- for them not to be issued in their entirety, and I think many people would put up with a few cartoons they don't like in each set for the knowledge that eventually they could own every Warner Bros. cartoon (or at least all of them within the best years).

By the way, a chronological Max Fleischer would have been fine with me -- and they'd pull in all the Popeye and the Betty Boop fans at the same time. As someone said, it seems like everyone would be happy that way. I don't want to watch one Popeye after the other -- it would have been great to intersperse the Boops and the one-shots with them.

In fact, I'd like all the companies to release their cartoons chronologically, and that includes the Terrytoons! Where are they already?

 

[Joe Tor1]

It seems we agree, even when we appear to disagree.

I said: “A 'chronological' Popeye seems to be doing fine so far… but I don’t think a 'Chronological Max Fleischer' (that just included Popeye as part of the greater whole) would do all that well outside of animation enthusiasts.”…and, per your comments, there’s no debating the fact that you are an “animation enthusiast”.

I am too… but maybe not quite that much. Consider the theoretical “Chronological Max Fleischer”. Even if you “start the clock” for Uncle Max at 1921 (when Leonard Maltin wrote that he formed his own studio), it’s about a dozen years before we get to the first Popeye. …And I wouldn’t care to wait that long.

Sure there’s a lot of great and/or historical stuff in those 12 years but, even with the prospect of Betty Boop well represented among them, I’d probably not be there. I don’t need to see that many early Kokos and the rest. Maybe, I’d go for a “Chronological Betty Boop” with features and commentaries by animators and historians, but the “whole package” would not interest me… and that’s indicative of the greater point.

As much as we enthusiasts would like it to be so, these things are not made exclusively for us. That’s why Warner hedges its bets each year with the scaled down, family favorite heavy Spotlight Collections released beside the Golden Collections.

In fact, I shudder to think how differently much of it would be packaged or presented without the tireless efforts of Jerry Beck – on Looney Tunes, Popeye, Woody Woodpecker, etc. He’s clearly on “our side”, regardless of the final product. And, I believe it always turns out better than it would, if not for him.

Yes, Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies WOULD have been very interesting to see in chronological order. I’ve found that it gives the viewer an entirely new – and more historically accurate – perspective on things that you can never get from years of disjointed TV viewings. My perspectives on Donald Duck, Goofy, Woody Woodpecker, and Popeye have been altered by “chronological” DVD packaging.

But, I still maintain that Warner and Jerry Beck made the right call when it came to packaging Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies as a whole. Though I DO believe that there is great merit in Joe Lugoff’s proposal of sets-by-year that would skip around, so as not to mire us in a less popular early or later period. I like that… but, we all know folks would quickly say that it’s not “really” chronological. AND, it’s too late for that now, unless we’re prepared to swallow some serious double dipping.

…It’s one of those things we can never truly “win”, so let’s enjoy what we have – and hope for good things in the future.

 

[rampagingsloth]

Ya, I knew using the Popeye series as an example was imperfect since it's exclusively Popeye but I used that one because the volumes are named by year (not Vol. 1 and Vol. 2, etc.) and they're black & white which supposedly are bad for sales (I'm looking at you, Ted Turner). As much of an animation fan as I am even I can't sit through a whole disk of any one character, even my favorites.

I would think that WB would separate the Buddys and Boskos into their own separate series even though that's technically not true. I cannot see most people (including myself) buying those sets. I used to buy every animation laserdisc that came out. At a certain point I could tell who the director was of any WB cartoon within about 10 seconds just from the differing styles. Which probably meant I was watching too many damn cartoons, hahahaaha. But I think that would be a result of watching cartoons chronologically, noticing the development of characters and directors.

I realize that WB is not restoring the cartoons chronologically so therefore they get released first-come/first-served. that's unavoidable and logical. And since I was born too late to watch theatrical cartoons in the actual theater (except for that year that was Bugs' 50th birthday, I think) I feel incredibly lucky to be around to buy these sets as they come out (and also the Pink Panther/Inspector/Ant & Aardvark ones!). But I was very disappointed to see the laserdisc releases stop far short of completion (and see that some cartoons already released on laserdisc *still* aren't available on DVD). I'm hoping the DVD releases don't follow the same path just because of one or two poor selling sets or because DVD is old news, Blu-Ray is the way to go. Commit, dammit! To hell with marketing execs, those bean counters almost killed the Walt Disney Treasures series before it was done.

As has been said, WB has like a thousand of their cartoons, a collection of that size is too important to not release all of them (restored and uncensored!!). And that's the problem I guess. Big volume, hard to maintain interest with casual fans, along with *lots* of one-offs, fluctuating quality, and characters who only appeared a few times and are of no interest to fans who only know/like Bugs, Daffy, Porky and Road Runner. It's a headache but I would love to be in charge of that headache.