Looking for advice on power (1 Viewer)

[JohnRice]

Thanks for that insight. Maybe I'll save some more $$ for the MP monolith 11 channel. Power output looks great with more power for the front 3.

I think the problem is Outlaw farms out manufacturing. You have better options these days. Personally I like the newer designs (Class D and H) which are significantly lighter. The idea of an 80lb amp might feed the ego, but they're a PITA to move around. Not to mention the problem of shipping them if they need service.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Thanks for that insight. Maybe I'll save some more $$ for the MP monolith 11 channel. Power output looks great with more power for the front 3.

I'd probably go w/ 2 separate amps if you can. Cost more, but you'll most likely get meaningfully more plus if one dies or need repair, you won't be completely out and will have more options to deal w/ it.

You could also go w/ an Anthem receiver primarily for its amp section to handle the less power hungry surround and/or Atmos channels. The front LCRs are generally where the biggest power needs occur. Most of the rest require substantially less power, especially if you have powerful subs to offload more of the bass from them -- bass is generally where the lion's share of power is needed.

And if you don't expect to need or care about any of the newer features, you could always consider a used AVM-60 instead of the AVM-70 (or AVR) -- that's what I recently did and essentially paid 1/2 as much buying used from folks looking to upgrade, etc around this time w/ all the new gear being announced/released. Do note though that Anthem's warranties are not transferable even though most pre-owned AVM-60s would still be covered for the original owners, so be sure you can thoroughly test a used unit w/in whatever defect return period allowed. Crutchfield also offers open-boxed and cosmetically blemished units at some discounts, if you prefer that route instead, since they would retain Anthem's warranties.

_Man_

 

[John Dirk]

I actually posted about this in another thread here, but my short answer is no, I would avoid Outlaw. Their recent customer service and quality track record has left something to be desired. @John Dirk can likely add his own recent story on that topic.

The thread Dave linked tells the story but the short of it is, my Outlaw 7140 failed in warranty and still cost me about $130.00 to ship back for service. I was without it for over a month and Outlaw basically ignored my repeated requests for status updates. My initial experience with them when I purchased the amp back in 2016 was excellent but things appear to have changed.

If I were in the market for an amp today I would probably be looking exclusively at Class D designs.

 

[JohnRice]

If I were in the market for an amp today I would probably be looking exclusively at Class D designs.

Well, I am surprised by how impressed I am with the Class H amps I got recently. I think both designs are the future of amplifiers. Class D is more expensive to implement to the maximum of it's potential, but theoretically it's capable of higher performance and tends to have higher potential power output. Class H isn't capable of the same theoretical performance, but is less expensive to implement, and is probably always physically larger. I encourage people top explore both.

 

[SmCaudata]

Well, I am surprised by how impressed I am with the Class H amps I got recently. I think both designs are the future of amplifiers. Class D is more expensive to implement to the maximum of it's potential, but theoretically it's capable of higher performance and tends to have higher potential power output. Class H isn't capable of the same theoretical performance, but is less expensive to implement, and is probably always physically larger. I encourage people top explore both.

This sent me on a search. I have a Peachtree Nova 150 which has ICEPower modules. In looking at multichannel it looks to be better value to go with Hype nCore. The Purifi modules look really nice for the front 3. VTV seems to have the best pricing. Any other makers or options to look at?

 

[Dave Upton]

This sent me on a search. I have a Peachtree Nova 150 which has ICEPower modules. In looking at multichannel it looks to be better value to go with Hype nCore. The Purifi modules look really nice for the front 3. VTV seems to have the best pricing. Any other makers or options to look at?

These come to mind immediately.

D-Sonic
Wyred4Sound
Ghent audio/DIY
Legacy audio

I have personally heard a lot of different class D and H amps, owning several. It's hard to go wrong with any modules nowadays, from Pascal to Hypex. Purifi seems like a bit of audiophile friendly BS. FWIW, the same modules used in my D-Sonic amps are used in extremely expensive Jeff Rowland amps. It's all about the input board with class D.

 

[SmCaudata]

These come to mind immediately.

D-Sonic
Wyred4Sound
Ghent audio/DIY
Legacy audio

I have personally heard a lot of different class D and H amps, owning several. It's hard to go wrong with any modules nowadays, from Pascal to Hypex. Purifi seems like a bit of audiophile friendly BS. FWIW, the same modules used in my D-Sonic amps are used in extremely expensive Jeff Rowland amps. It's all about the input board with class D.

Are the D-sonic amps pascal? It looks like even the low end multichannel at 400w per channel is enough for me driving relatively sensitive speakers.

 

[JohnRice]

Are the D-sonic amps pascal? It looks like even the low end multichannel at 400w per channel is enough for me driving relatively sensitive speakers.

Dave can answer more definitively, but I believe D-Sonic uses ICE modules. That's B&O, isn't it?

 

[Dave Upton]

Dave can answer more definitively, but I believe D-Sonic uses ICE modules. That's B&O, isn't it?

They used to use the B&O modules about 2 generations back, but now D-Sonic exclusively uses Pascal X-Pro modules which are substantially better than the B&O modules.

 

[Jeff1125]

Jeff,

The specs for most receivers will define both if you dig a little deeper. For example, using the Yamaha above, we can find the following on their website.

View attachment 88097

To translate this to plain english, this means:

In ideal situations using a test tone playing at a single frequency (1kHz) you are rated to get 155 watts for two channels (left and right).

When playing all frequencies more like real life/movie watching, you get 140 watts for the left and right channels.

This is all a pretty clever way to avoid mentioning how power drops with all channels driven. Some manufacturers will share this number too, but it's becoming harder and harder to find numbers one can trust.

I would say as a general rule - you should plan to lose a fair bit of that power on all channel loads. Here's a review of the last iteration, the RX-A2070 by Sound&Vision, which had identical specs to the 2080, and shows a substantial loss in power with all channels:

View attachment 88098

The moral of the story here is that one needs to be very cautious when buying a receiver, as the devil is in the details and most specs intentionally lie.

For folks who are more serious about home theater, I almost always recommend moving to separates, where you have an amplifier that you keep for the long haul, and your receiver becomes a processor, basically a receiver without the amplification section. There are several excellent amplifiers on the market you could consider, but you'd likely have to spend towards the upper end of your budget, and go for a used processor/receiver to feed it. I would definitely lean that way if you're amenable.

Dave,

Do you, or anyone else on this thread for that matter, currently have separate components? Since your last comment, I have been looking into processor and amplifier combinations, as well as simply buying an AVR now and adding an amplifier in the future. This looks to be a great alternative since I'll have a dedicated HT room.

 

[Dave Upton]

Dave,

Do you, or anyone else on this thread for that matter, currently have separate components? Since your last comment, I have been looking into processor and amplifier combinations, as well as simply buying an AVR now and adding an amplifier in the future. This looks to be a great alternative since I'll have a dedicated HT room.

Yes, most of us here have separates today.

My system can be seen here: https://www.hometheaterforum.com/co...m-the-htf-theaters-thread.370866/post-4958326

I use D-Sonic amps, while @JohnRice uses Emotiva.

If you have a budget and channel count in mind, we can make some recommendations.

 

[Jeff1125]

Yes, most of us here have separates today.

My system can be seen here: https://www.hometheaterforum.com/co...m-the-htf-theaters-thread.370866/post-4958326

I use D-Sonic amps, while @JohnRice uses Emotiva.

If you have a budget and channel count in mind, we can make some recommendations.

Thanks Dave, your HT looks awesome! I will have to crunch the numbers to get a new budget amount, but I am looking at 9 channels for a 5.1.4 setup.

 

[JohnRice]

Dave,

Do you, or anyone else on this thread for that matter, currently have separate components? Since your last comment, I have been looking into processor and amplifier combinations, as well as simply buying an AVR now and adding an amplifier in the future. This looks to be a great alternative since I'll have a dedicated HT room.

If you have some time, you might listen to the latest PodCast.

I happen to have Emotiva amps, but I'm not beholden to them either. It's just that circumstances were such that about ten years ago when I was getting back into upgrading my equipment, they were the only one I could afford at the time. They're not as economical these days, but still relatively economical.

 

[Dave Upton]

Thanks Dave, your HT looks awesome! I will have to crunch the numbers to get a new budget amount, but I am looking at 9 channels for a 5.1.4 setup.

My advice would be to buy a receiver that can power your atmos channels, (4) plus a 3 or 5 channel unit for your main system.

Something like the Marantz SR6014: https://www.accessories4less.com/ma...ts-a/v-receiver-w/heos/1.html#!specifications

Then you can get a 3 or 5 channel amp from D-Sonic or Emotiva. The primary difference between the two is technology. D-Sonic is all Class D and will have significantly more power and run cooler - but you will have to pay slightly quite a bit more.

D-Sonic 3 Channel https://www.d-sonic.com/product/three-channel-amplifier/
D-Sonic 5 Channel https://www.d-sonic.com/product/m3a-2000-5-five-channel-amplifier/
Emotiva 3 Channel https://emotiva.com/collections/amps/products/xpa-3-gen3

 

[JohnRice]

Then you can get a 3 or 5 channel amp from D-Sonic or Emotiva. The primary difference between the two is technology. D-Sonic is all Class D and will have significantly more power and run cooler - but you will have to pay slightly more.

Well, not to be partisan, the power difference is 400WPC vs. 300WPC, and the "slight" price difference is nearly double.

The D-Sonic is Class D, which has the highest efficiency and smallest enclosure, where the Emotiva is Class H, which is still quite efficient, but not to the level of D, runs a little warmer, while still quite cool, but has a significantly larger enclosure. The XPA amps are huge. Weight of the two options is about the same.

 

[Dave Upton]

Well, not to be partisan, the power difference is 400WPC vs. 300WPC, and the "slight" price difference is nearly double.

The D-Sonic is Class D, which has the highest efficiency and smallest enclosure, where the Emotiva is Class H, which is still quite efficient, but not to the level of D, runs a little warmer, while still quite cool, but has a significantly larger enclosure. The XPA amps are huge. Weight of the two options is about the same.

Not a massive difference in power for sure, but certainly a noticeable one. D-Sonic amps are relatively lightweight, but not as light as you might think because the chassis are solid steel. Dennis is a mechanical engineer and his chassis reflect that.

I think Emotiva are pretty transparent about 275W into 8 Ohms, all 3 channels driven.

The D-Sonic will do 400W all channels driven into 8 Ohms, but is stable to 2 Ohms which is a fairly substantial increase in power and price.

You're ultimately comparing a more budget amplifier to one that's a little higher end, which is why the D-Sonic has 2dB more SNR and more than double the damping factor. I'd be interested to see Emotiva publish IMD and some other interesting measurements, but unfortunately they don't seem to do so.

 

[JohnRice]

Like I said, I don't want to get into a partisan argument. One amp costs 90% more than the other one. It's not a fair comparison. A much more fair comparison would be the Emotiva XPA-DR3, which is still $275 less expensive.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

@Jeff1125, what speakers are you planning to drive?

Considering this would be your first(?) foray into separates and unless you plan to drive particularly difficult speakers, I wouldn't think you need to spend the extra $$$ on D-Sonic amps. You'd probably be perfectly happy w/ Emotiva's offerings. And they do provide 30-day free trial... though you'll have to pay return shipping, which can probably run $60-100 (depending on how close you are to Tennessee)...

FWIW, I'm about to try an Emotiva XPA-DR2 to drive some very difficult (though w/ fairly well behaved impedance curve) Thiel CS5i speakers -- they are rated at 3 ohms and go down near 1 ohm in the bass region. I bought the XPA-DR2 w/ their last holiday promo offer and expect to be able to resell it w/out significant, if any, loss if it isn't up to the task -- I may try a D-Sonic M3a-3000S for ~$1K more in that case, instead of the M3a-1500S since the $ diff isn't quite that much. The only fairly extensive, reputable review I could find of the XPA-DR2 suggests it should be able to handle loads down to 2 ohms even though Emotiva doesn't make the claim themselves.

I also went w/ an XPA-5 Gen 3 (replacing a possibly dying, nearly 30-yo B&K amp) for the other floor level channels (for eventual 7.2.4), and so far so good though it's currently only driving 6-to-8-ohm speakers. Haven't committed to an amp for the eventual Atmos channels yet, but those should be even easier to drive me thinks...

_Man_

 

[Jeff1125]

@Jeff1125, what speakers are you planning to drive?

Considering this would be your first(?) foray into separates and unless you plan to drive particularly difficult speakers, I wouldn't think you need to spend the extra $$$ on D-Sonic amps. You'd probably be perfectly happy w/ Emotiva's offerings. And they do provide 30-day free trial... though you'll have to pay return shipping, which can probably run $60-100 (depending on how close you are to Tennessee)...

FWIW, I'm about to try an Emotiva XPA-DR2 to drive some very difficult (though w/ fairly well behaved impedance curve) Thiel CS5i speakers -- they are rated at 3 ohms and go down near 1 ohm in the bass region. I bought the XPA-DR2 w/ their last holiday promo offer and expect to be able to resell it w/out significant, if any, loss if it isn't up to the task -- I may try a D-Sonic M3a-3000S for ~$1K more in that case, instead of the M3a-1500S since the $ diff isn't quite that much. The only fairly extensive, reputable review I could find of the XPA-DR2 suggests it should be able to handle loads down to 2 ohms even though Emotiva doesn't make the claim themselves.

I also went w/ an XPA-5 Gen 3 (replacing a possibly dying, nearly 30-yo B&K amp) for the other floor level channels (for eventual 7.2.4), and so far so good though it's currently only driving 6-to-8-ohm speakers. Haven't committed to an amp for the eventual Atmos channels yet, but those should be even easier to drive me thinks...

_Man_

This is definitely the first time looking into separate components. I haven't settled on speakers yet, I'm still researching. Regarding the Emotiva option, I certainly like the price compared to the others. If I do decide to go with separates, do I necessarily need a 5 channel amp to drive the side surrounds, or will a 3 channel amp suffice? Do the surrounds need as much power as the front three? Or is it a simple matter of personal taste and preference?

 

[JohnRice]

This is definitely the first time looking into separate components. I haven't settled on speakers yet, I'm still researching. Regarding the Emotiva option, I certainly like the price compared to the others. If I do decide to go with separates, do I necessarily need a 5 channel amp to drive the side surrounds, or will a 3 channel amp suffice? Do the surrounds need as much power as the front three? Or is it a simple matter of personal taste and preference?

The front three are the most demanding and dynamic. Going with a three channel amp is definitely a good way to go.