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Disney+ Loki (2021) (1 Viewer)

Josh Steinberg

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The Gamora we know from the Guardians movie is dead and cannot return.

There is a Gamora running around in the prime universe that crossed over from the alternate 2014 from a point in her history before the Guardians formed, during the time heist in Endgame. So this Gamora shares “our” Gamora’s childhood up to her decision to betray Thanos, but never met the other Guardians and never fell in love with Starlord.
 

Citizen87645

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It seems like there’s no consequences to death. There’s always the possibility he/she will be resurrected. Will Gamora return?
I assume that's one of the reasons the TVA exists, for those who may want to bring back loved ones by bringing back older versions of them, not knowing the consequences of the branch they've created causes other problems (or so says the TVA).
 

Sam Favate

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(No spoilers.) (I think.)

I finally saw the first episode, and I liked it. The show's production design is tremendous. I loved the colors and design of the TVA, and that shot of where they are (when Loki first looked out the "window") is absolutely spectacular. The music was also great.

Hiddleston always looks like his wheels are turning in his head, which is as it should be for that character. (I happen to still believe he'd make a great James Bond. Loved the scene on the airplane.) Owen Wilson was great; his calm voice is exactly what the show about the God of Mischief needs.

There was a lot of unpacking to do in this one. They had to both explain where Loki came from and what the TVA is. Loved the animation sequence - that might be my favorite part of the show.

But I do see a problem: You kinda need to have seen all the Thor and Avengers movies to know what's going on. Even with the explanation they gave, it's assumed the audience has seen the films and remembers them. Watching the scenes from the Avengers films (and the scenes aren't complete, since the backgrounds are missing), it's hard to place them in context if you haven't seen them.

I'm not familiar with Marvel's TVA, but it sure seems to function a whole lot like DC's Time Bureau from Legends of Tomorrow. I love that show, and its insanely skewed take, so I'm glad Marvel's doing it a bit more seriously.

Looking forward to seeing where this goes. (This is 6 episodes, right?)
 

jayembee

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It seems like there’s no consequences to death. There’s always the possibility he/she will be resurrected. Will Gamora return?

Wait until the movies get all multiversed on their asses!

Speaking of Gamora...it's bizarre that the TVA seemed to think that the Avengers' time heist was what was "supposed to" happen. How about Thanos &co. coming forward from 2014 to 2023? Thanos-2014 (and his minions) come forward in time, and after a fight with the Avengers, get snapped. Which should mean that there was no Thanos running around collecting Infinity Stones in the four-year gap between 2014 (Guardians of the Galaxy) and 2018 (Avengers: Infinity War), which creates one hell of a Grandfather Paradox¹.

So, yes, the continuity from Endgame going forward is a variant timeline from the original. The TVA would need to reset one of them, but which one would/did they reset? Eliminating the original timeline would leave the Paradox in place. Eliminating the new variant would, in effect, eliminate the Avengers' victory.

¹ For those unfamiliar with the Grandfather Paradox, it's a thought experiment in which a man goes back in time and accidentally kills his grandfather before his father is born (the man's, not the grandfather's). If his father is never born, then he is never born, and therefore doesn't exist to be able to go back in time. Which means is grandfather is not killed, his father is born, and he is born and therefore can go back in time and accidentally kill his grandfather. And around and around and around they go.
 

Josh Steinberg

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Which should mean that there was no Thanos running around collecting Infinity Stones in the four-year gap between 2014 (Guardians of the Galaxy) and 2018 (Avengers: Infinity War), which creates one hell of a Grandfather Paradox¹.

It isn’t, because the very act of going back in time and having new interactions creates a new alternate reality. So the Thanos that snapped everyone out of existence in the prime 2018 after four years of collecting stones always exists and always does that. The Thanos from the time heist that follows Nebula in Endgame is an alternate reality Thanos crossing from an alternate 2014 into the prime 2023.
 

Greg.K

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It isn’t, because the very act of going back in time and having new interactions creates a new alternate reality. So the Thanos that snapped everyone out of existence in the prime 2018 after four years of collecting stones always exists and always does that. The Thanos from the time heist that follows Nebula in Endgame is an alternate reality Thanos crossing from an alternate 2014 into the prime 2023.
But that should cause problems with the TVA and their "sacred timeline".
 

Joe Wong

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But that should cause problems with the TVA and their "sacred timeline".

That was a question I had when watching the episode, and the catch-all answer appears to be (to any problematic scenario where the TVA don't show up to correct a deviation): it's the proper flow of time according to the TVA.
 

Edwin-S

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I fell asleep in the middle of it. I did finish it, but I can only hope it gets better. It doesn't help that Owen Wilson is in it. I find his voice and vocal delivery annoying. He is on the Mathew McConaughey level of annoying to me.
 

Museum Pieces

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This was the most underwhelming of the first episodes of the three series so far for me. My problem can be summed up in one question: The branching timelines the Avengers created were supposed to happen but Loki's was not. Why? This is never explained. It seems the answer is "Because we said so." I'm willing to give this some willing suspension of disbelief, but the entire premise seems based on the very incredible answer to this question.

It's like the question I have with the Eternals: why didn't they intervene to stop Thanos?

The real answer for both Loki and The Eternals is the same: neither series was in force yet. As to how each series answer this question internally remains to be seen. So far Loki's answer seems to be: don't ask.
 

Josh Steinberg

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That was a question I had when watching the episode, and the catch-all answer appears to be (to any problematic scenario where the TVA don't show up to correct a deviation): it's the proper flow of time according to the TVA.

If there’s never a further explanation, I can accept this.

The snap eliminated half of all life in the universe - people, animals, plant life, bacteria, half of everything gone.

When we see the TVA in action in the first episode, it looks like individuals sorting out individual cases. How could they possibly deal with the ramifications of restoring each individual life out of trillions or more?

Meanwhile, Doctor Strange foresaw that the only way to defeat Thanos was to allow him to win temporarily while keeping Tony Stark alive so that Stark could one day figure out the time travel needed to retrieve the stones, assist in building a new gauntlet to snap everyone back, and then sacrifice himself in the process of erasing Thanos. Strange saw all of that before it happened, which means there was a path for it to happen, which meant all the TVA had to do was accept that plan.

The TVA doesn’t seem to have extraordinary powers when they’re outside of their little headquarter space. Their agents can fail to complete tasks and die when they’re on the mortal playing field. Given that, it doesn’t seem that there was a plausible path for them to stop Thanos from doing the snap in the first place.
 

Citizen87645

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This was the most underwhelming of the first episodes of the three series so far for me. My problem can be summed up in one question: The branching timelines the Avengers created were supposed to happen but Loki's was not. Why? This is never explained. It seems the answer is "Because we said so." I'm willing to give this some willing suspension of disbelief, but the entire premise seems based on the very incredible answer to this question.

It's like the question I have with the Eternals: why didn't they intervene to stop Thanos?

The real answer for both Loki and The Eternals is the same: neither series was in force yet. As to how each series answer this question internally remains to be seen. So far Loki's answer seems to be: don't ask.
Here's my take, and what I am willing to accept:

The Avengers' Time Heist branching timelines were allowed because the Avengers (or specifically, Captain America) went to the trouble of putting the Infinity Stones back when/where they got them, effectively pruning the branches they created. Or at least stopping the branches' from growing before they got out of control. This was also expressly what the Ancient One told them they had to do if she was going to give them the Time Stone.

The other thing is Variant Loki would be a branch of a branch, which would seem more problematic, but that's just me speculating based on what's been established.
 
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sleroi

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The branching timelines the Avengers created were supposed to happen but Loki's was not.

Here's my theory:

Tony made clear the heist wasnt supposed to effect the present, i.e. he didnt want his daughter not to be born. So they stayed within the prime timeline, snuck in, got the stones, snuck out.

The only variant timeline this would have caused is one in wich Thanos was unable to acquire the stones himself and no blip. But before that could happen, past Thanos jumped ahead to present day, same prime timeline, so no variant timeline was created. It was the one path Dr. Strange saw.

But they werent undetected as Loki saw Ant Man, took the tesseract and went to the Gobi desert. Causing a variant timeline in wich he wasnt killed by Thanos and then who knows what would have happened. Thats why the TVA intervened.
 

Joe Wong

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I don't mind accepting the premise, but it seems the "proper flow of time" is already predetermined. This includes the Snap and the Time Heist. Otherwise the TVA would have shown up.

Loki escaping with the Tesseract is not part of the proper flow of time, hence the TVA shows up to arrest him.
 

Adam Lenhardt

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I don't mind accepting the premise, but it seems the "proper flow of time" is already predetermined. This includes the Snap and the Time Heist. Otherwise the TVA would have shown up.
That's my understanding as well. The three Time Keepers, whoever/whatever they are, sifted through the tangled mess of multiverses and alternate timelines and picked and chose the timeline they liked the best. Then they established the TVA to preserve that timeline and eliminate any others that might pop up.

Given that the head writer for this is also the screenwriter for Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, it seems like the discrepancy between an MCU multiverse and one annointed timeline will be addressed one way or another.
 

Citizen87645

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I don't mind accepting the premise, but it seems the "proper flow of time" is already predetermined. This includes the Snap and the Time Heist. Otherwise the TVA would have shown up.

Loki escaping with the Tesseract is not part of the proper flow of time, hence the TVA shows up to arrest him.

Sure, just explain it as concisely as possible. ;)
 

Museum Pieces

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So what I am hearing is a preference in timeline, not the idea of pre-destination. I only watched episode 1 of Loki once, but it smacked of pre-destination, which I neither care for or believe in. The idea that a certain timeline is protected because it is more just is not a bad idea as long as the people making the decisions have a moral code that has the best interest of the universe in mind. And what is that, exactly?

For some reason this has had me thinking about the midichlorians (sp?) in Star Wars. The idea of biological determinism seems at odds with the power of the spirit. I never believed it. Anyway, I'm looking forward to Loki episode 2.
 

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