Logic 7 seems to reduce my bass

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Matt Woodyard, Nov 16, 2002.

  1. Matt Woodyard

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    I have a H/K AVR-8000 that can overlay logic 7 onto 5.1 sources. I prefer the sound of logic-7 over the other modes on most applications but noticed last night while playing AOTC that the bass seemed to be quite reduced compared to what I remember from the theater. I particularly noticed this in the asteroid seen. So after fiddling for awhile, I changed the mode back to Dolby digital and replayed the seen. There the bass was in all its glory and it sounded great!! Later, I tried this same comparison in the pod race seen of Episode 1 and noticed the same result, DD had much more bass than the logic-7 mode. I have the settings for subwoofer level and all the other speakers identically set in the 8000's menus for the two modes. It almost sounds as if the logic-7 does some sort of dynamic range compression kinda like if I use the "night" mode of DD. Anyone else who can use logic-7 on 5.1 sources notice this? and if so can it be fixed? I really like the sound of logic-7 from the other speakers but don't want to miss the bass experience that my SVS PC+ can dish out!
     
  2. Gregory Scott Bass

    Gregory Scott Bass Stunt Coordinator

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    have you tried lr+lfe setting? I havnt listened enough to really help you yet but have noticed for the same volume setting logic7 seems to be several db lower so I have to increase the volume when I select it. still tweaking mine so I will try to revisit this thread when I have more to share. Scott
     
  3. Bill Will

    Bill Will Screenwriter

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    I remember reading somewhere? that the same thing happens on Dobly Pro-Logic II & DTS Neo:6 so maybe it's the same using Logic7? But again, if I remember right the reduction in bass can very on the brands & models of the receivers when using DLPII or Neo:6 but all of them did have a reduction in the bass.
     
  4. Michael Reuben

    Michael Reuben Studio Mogul

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    On the full-blown version of Logic7 included with Lexicon processors, there's no reduction of bass. There are, however, various individual parameters (bass enhance, LFE level, etc.) that could certainly affect one's perception of bass or LFE on any given recording. I don't know how much of that control is included with the HK version. If there are separate settings for Logic7, you may want to experiment with them.

    M.
     
  5. Matt Woodyard

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    Unfortunately there are no settings that can be tweaked with the logic 7 on the H/K. I listened to several other scenes in different movies as well as played with the subwoofer volume. I have concluded that it is not so much an overall reduction in bass but more of an attenuation of the really low frequencies. In scenes where there is alot of "midbass" logic 7 sounds no different than DD but on scenes such as in the two Star wars films which contain alot of bass extending down into the 20-30 Hz range the L7 mode seems to lack the "tactile" bass as I like to call it. A specific example is in the pod race scene of TPM. In DD, when Sebulba's (sp?) ship does a flyby the bass can be felt, I can feel it hit me in the chest. The sound that his ship makes can also be felt. In Logic 7 mode most of the bass is still present but the tactile feeling is lost. The other night my wife was watching the Jim Carrey version of "How the Grinch stole Xmas" in L7 and I noticed that the scene when the Grinch fires up that rocket sled he builds seemed to contain alot of low bass, I re-watched that scene then in DD and DTS and it sounded the same in all 3 modes so it seems that in this particular scene the bass remained intact. Very frustrating!! Can anyone with a h/k 8000 and a sub capable of low extension like an SVS,Hsu or velodyne check if they experience the same thing with the pod race scene? Just seems kinda weird.
     
  6. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    Here's a question:
    Would there be any way to try to use Avia (or VE or S&V's test DVD) while L7 is engaged? That way, you could see exactly what L7 is doing to all the speaker signals.
    Maybe? Maybe not? [​IMG]
     
  7. Matt Woodyard

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    I have Avia and yes Logic 7 can be applied to any source. What do you mean exactly by using this to "see" what L7 is doing to the channels? How would I do this? I did do the low frequency LFE sweep on the disc and with L7 the bass drops out much more quickly below about 70-80Hz or so when compared to DD. Above this frequency they seem pretty much equal. I also compared it to DD with THX post processing on and the THX mode is the same as the DD mode to my ears, only L7 has this reduction. I also checked my crossover point setting of the receiver as the 8000 can be adjusted for each surround mode and I have all speakers set to small and crossover at 100Hz for DD, DTS, THX and L7. I'll have to play with it a bit more. If there is something else on the avia disc that could help with this let me know!
     
  8. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    Matt- Can you do the following:

    Use the Avia test tones for adjusting each speakers level, but try to engage L7 while that is playing. Or, better yet, go right to the sub tests and try there. Mainly the one where you set the subs level vs the left front, the center, etc.

    For example, if you calibrate normally using Avia (no processing), and then compare vs L7 engaged, and see what the differences are.

    But I don't know if each of those tests will come across as "DD 5.1" vs "DD 1.0" as each speaker tone is played...
     
  9. Lou Loomis

    Lou Loomis Stunt Coordinator

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  10. Bill Street

    Bill Street Stunt Coordinator

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    I could be very confused, and if so I apologize. I use Logic 7 over PLII over all analog and digital 2 channel sources. I do agree it creates a "better" sound than PLII.

    I don't understand, however, using Logic 7 over DD or DTS which is already in 5.1. It seems that DD or DTS is putting forth a "true" 5.1 sound as the filmakers intended it, while I thought Logic 7 put forth a "simulated" 5.1 signal. Is the sound from Logic 7 better than a true 5.1 mix? Or does Logic 7 also give a "true" 5.1 mix?

    I'm confused... :b

    Bill S.
     
  11. David Yevin

    David Yevin Agent

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    Do you mean that any signal you play through the receiver, Logic 7 can be applied?

    according to the manual for the 520, and i believe the 320, i was under the impression logic 7 can only be applied to an analog input signal.
     
  12. Michael Reuben

    Michael Reuben Studio Mogul

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  13. Bill Street

    Bill Street Stunt Coordinator

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    Wow, Logic 7 Kicks @$%#!!!
    [​IMG]
    Bill S.
     
  14. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    To add to what Michael R said, one real tangible benefit of Logic 7 is to "expand" DD/DTS 5.1 (or even 6.1 DD EX/DTS-ES) sources to a 7.1 speaker setup.

    Generic DD EX/DTS-ES is only 6.1 (unless you get hyper about the matrixed channel, then it is still 5.1 except for DTS-ES discrete which is truly 6.1). On a 7.1 speaker setup, you get mono rears. Logic 7, as well as THX Ultra2, gives you non-mono rears. Basically, you get a "unique" signal for all 7 speakers plus the sub.
     
  15. Matt Woodyard

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    The way I understand it, the only H/K model that can apply logic 7 to 5.1 or above sources is the 8000. There is some speculation that the new 7200 due out in Feb will be able to do this but it has not been confirmed. Apparently the application of logic 7 (or THX post processing for that matter) to 5.1 sources requires two DSP processors (one to process the 5.1 signal in its native format such as DTS or DD and the second one to process that signal into logic 7 or THX). H/K's other receivers such as the 320/520 and even new 525 have only the single processor and cannot apply L7 to 5.1 sources. Following this logic it seems unlikely that the new 7200 will be able to do this either since it also has only the single DSP processor, but I could be wrong. Every source I have tried has been able to have L7 applied to it even a MP3 stream from my computer into one of the optical inputs on the 8000 (the 8000 can decode MP3 internally). I'm still on analog cable so I cant try the music through the cable thing, but I can apply L7 to the analog cable audio coming in from my VCR into the 8000.
     
  16. DonaldZ

    DonaldZ Extra

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    I realize it may not be the best approach to watching DVDs, but for a while, I'm going to use the PS2 that predated the rest of my new equipment. I'm using analog to the receiver, and yes, Logic 7 cuts the bass to the point that the sub seems to vanish.

    It doesn't seem to be as prominent with other analog sources as with the PS2 as DVD player.

    Otherwise, I'm still playing with the setup to get the best out of the HK-520.
     

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