Let's Talk About Networking (1 Viewer)

[ManW_TheUncool]

What I can't figure out on DIY mesh is...how? I go buy a couple TP-Link EAP225 V3 access points. How do I make them "mesh"? How do I make them work with my Apple Airport Extreme Base Station? Or I replace that with a new wifi router. How do I make that work with access points?

I've read a variety of tech articles on mesh, and the consistent recommendation is to use ethernet backhaul if available. And if you want, just buy some cheap access points and plug them in and use with your current router. But no one ever explains how to make that work. Does it just work? Or is configuration required?

Which is why I find Eero, et al so appealing: they do all the work and I don't have to develop a new hobby as a DIY home network adminstrator -- a hobby I most definitely *do not* want!

The Ars Technica semi-scientific guide to Wi-Fi Access Point placement

Wi-Fi is like real estate—the secret is location, location, location.

arstechnica.com

See on Amazon

Near as I can tell, the difference between proper "mesh" and just doing what @John Dirk was suggesting is the mesh solution has to have some additional smarts (and probably inter-node communications toward that end) to steer your access from one node/AP to another w/in that mesh... probably similar to how it'd work in a multi-band router that steers between bands, if it's all that good.

In the various mesh (branded) solutions, most/all that smarts might be largely hidden from the user in black-box style, plug-and-play, so there's probably no need for explanations other than maybe best practices re: placement of nodes, etc. But good luck if anything doesn't work quite the way you want/expect.

Not sure you can really do DIY mesh that performs quite the same as those solutions since you probably can't readily add any of the extra smarts needed for that.

The closest I can think of to what you're thinking is what ASUS offers via their AiMesh software built into every(?) relatively recent router they make (of the last few years) that allows you to mix and match most/all their different models though the results seem to vary a bit, especially if you try to mix-and-match their ZenWifi model w/ the others (because their ZenWifi seems designed to be more like other typical mesh solutions even though it still offers most/all of the same features as other ASUS routers).

Maybe TP Link is doing something similar w/ their recent routers.

AFAIK, there's no mesh protocol standard to readily allow completely different brand routers/APs to do what you're asking...

_Man_

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Near as I can tell, the difference between proper "mesh" and just doing what @John Dirk was suggesting is the mesh solution has to have some additional smarts (and probably inter-node communications toward that end) to steer your access from one node/AP to another w/in that mesh... probably similar to how it'd work in a multi-band router that steers between bands, if it's all that good.

In the various mesh (branded) solutions, most/all that smarts might be largely hidden from the user in black-box style, plug-and-play, so there's probably no need for explanations other than maybe best practices re: placement of nodes, etc. But good luck if anything doesn't work quite the way you want/expect.

Not sure you can really do DIY mesh that performs quite the same as those solutions since you probably can't readily add any of the extra smarts needed for that.

The closest I can think of to what you're thinking is what ASUS offers via their AiMesh software built into every(?) relatively recent router they make (of the last few years) that allows you to mix and match most/all their different models though the results seem to vary a bit, especially if you try to mix-and-match their ZenWifi model w/ the others (because their ZenWifi seems designed to be more like other typical mesh solutions even though it still offers most/all of the same features as other ASUS routers).

Maybe TP Link is doing something similar w/ their recent routers.

AFAIK, there's no mesh protocol standard to readily allow completely different brand routers/APs to do what you're asking...

_Man_

Having said all that, it's also quite possible that most such "mesh" solutions don't actually do much, if any, of the smart steering that I hypothesized (or rather, think should be done), hehheh... and that would jive w/ what @John Dirk said... that it's essentially just largely marketing BS and software snake oil...

_Man_

 

[John Dirk]

I've tried setting up a router as a wireless access point (connected via a long ethernet cable) to my Verizon wireless router, so I could have better wifi on the second floor of my house. I bought a Netgear R6230 but for the life of me I can't get it to work as an access point (with the same SSID and password) as my regular wifi network. I have it set up as a separate wireless network, which works okay. Just frustrating despite following the instructions (written plus multiple online versions) carefully, I couldn't get it to just extend my existing wifi network. Maybe a Verizon issue? Thanks for letting me vent!

What specific problems did you encounter? This should really be quite simple.

 

[John Dirk]

What I can't figure out on DIY mesh is...how?

"DIY Mesh" is a term you're introducing. The solution I use is not Mesh and doesn't need to be. Keep in mind, the whole idea of Mesh is to [ostensibly] allow wireless nodes to interact more intelligently to improve overall performance for connected wireless clients. When properly configured wired AP's are used there is no need for Mesh as each client simply connects to the nearest AP and the AP connects to the main router via tried and true wired Ethernet. Mesh can be a good alternative when strategically placed wired AP's are impractical or impossible but it is a workaround for wireless, which is already in itself a workaround.

And if you want, just buy some cheap access points and plug them in and use with your current router. But no one ever explains how to make that work. Does it just work? Or is configuration required?

It's really quite simple in most cases. Although specific steps will depend on the manufacturer's management interface, here's a quick and dirty example.

• Main Router - Direct connection to incoming ISP Internet [Cable, DSL, Etc.]
• If main router is also used as an AP, appropriate SSID [Network Names] setup for both 2.4 and 5Ghz networks
• Locate remote AP's in areas close to the wireless devices you want them to connect to. Wired Ethernet is required in these areas. If this is not possible, consider Repeaters or Mesh .
• Use free tools such as Netgear's WiFi Analytics to determine best overall placement for AP's
• Follow manufacturers instructions for initial configuration of remote AP's. Once they are online place them in AP mode and connect them [usually via one of their LAN ports] to the main router.
• Configure each individual wireless client. If you want to insure each client always connects to the same AP, use separate SSID's for each AP, Upstairs_2G, Basement_5G, etc.

Each AP will provide wireless coverage for it's connected devices and the traffic will be sent back and forth from the AP to the main router via wired Ethernet.

While I rather enjoy this sort of work I do understand not everyone does and, like you, most would prefer a plug & play solution. My general problem with Mesh is that manufacturers know this as well but they also know it really isn't always that simple. In my commercial implementations we use pre and post surveys, heat maps and other tools to plan adequate WLAN designs. Apartments and smaller private homes likely are suitable candidates for consumer Mesh systems but larger, multi-story residences and businesses require a different approach. Manufacturers are fully aware of this yet they continue to release half-baked systems that promise performance that will likely only be realized in a controlled laboratory setting.

In summary, anyone who is unsatisfied with the performance of their single WiFi router setup should probably give Mesh a try. In larger homes or those with challenging environmental factors however [concrete, glass, etc.] it will probably yield spotty and unreliable results. In those cases, if you're so inclined a setup like I described above will probably result in much better performance but, yes, there is a fair amount of work involved. If fast, reliable WiFi is important to you and you don't want to take on the workload of setup and management, I would probably consult with a local professional, at least for the initial setup.

 

[JohnRice]

OK John, so all I really need to accomplish a faster, more solid WiFi signal in the bedroom. Mainly for the AppleTV, but also for iPad. My office is directly below and has ethernet. So, I'm guessing a basic unit like THIS should get the task done. Yeah? Just set it up with the same network name and password as the AirPort Extreme that serves the other side of the house, and I'm good to go?

 

[DaveF]

I upgraded from a single router to a router plus wired bridge, and it helped a lot. I intend to upgrade to something “mesh” sooner than later. The biggest problem is iPhone / iPad hanging on to the downstairs router too long when they’re in the upstairs bedroom and should have switched to the closer (bridged) unit. But I gather that’s an iOS problem.

 

[BobO'Link]

OK John, so all I really need to accomplish a faster, more solid WiFi signal in the bedroom. Mainly for the AppleTV, but also for iPad. My office is directly below and has ethernet. So, I'm guessing a basic unit like THIS should get the task done. Yeah? Just set it up with the same network name and password as the AirPort Extreme that serves the other side of the house, and I'm good to go?

I'll just say that I wouldn't own a Netgear product if it were given to me. I purchased one of their router/APs for my mom's house and returned it after a week. Two huge reasons:

1. No pure local management. To access all functions you *must* create an account on their servers. To access the joke of local management requires *disconnecting* the router from the internet and then attempt to log in. As soon as you reconnect the ISP and it gets an IP it dumps you back at the "Create an account to continue" prompts. This is 100% unacceptable.
2. It regularly dropped the signal if you tried to do "too much." In my case, dl a ~250mb size file. It'd crash halfway through. My daughter tried to use it for work and kept getting disconnected while *in the room with the AP."

Go with Linksys or TP-Link (I prefer TP-Link - they work well, have good features, are stable, and generally cost less).

 

[John Dirk]

OK John, so all I really need to accomplish a faster, more solid WiFi signal in the bedroom. Mainly for the AppleTV, but also for iPad. My office is directly below and has ethernet. So, I'm guessing a basic unit like THIS should get the task done. Yeah? Just set it up with the same network name and password as the AirPort Extreme that serves the other side of the house, and I'm good to go?

So you have a ranch with a basement. Wired Ethernet is available below the bedroom and on the other side of the house but nowhere near the actual bedroom, right? Is it feasible to run Ethernet up from the office to the bedroom? You can place an AP midway between the main level to serve the bedroom but, without a wired connection back to the router it would essentially be acting as a Repeater. This can work but would reduce theoretical speeds significantly due to the half duplex nature of WiFi.

 

[John Dirk]

I upgraded from a single router to a router plus wired bridge, and it helped a lot. I intend to upgrade to something “mesh” sooner than later. The biggest problem is iPhone / iPad hanging on to the downstairs router too long when they’re in the upstairs bedroom and should have switched to the closer (bridged) unit. But I gather that’s an iOS problem.

Do you have the same SSID configured for both units?

 

[John Dirk]

I'll just say that I wouldn't own a Netgear product if it were given to me. I purchased one of their router/APs for my mom's house and returned it after a week. Two huge reasons:

1. No pure local management. To access all functions you *must* create an account on their servers.

I have both a Netgear C7000v2 as my cable modem and a very old Nighthawk R6700 serving as one of my AP's. Each allows local logins via HTTP, no problem. For their phone-based management apps I've experienced the same thing you're talking about.

 

[BobO'Link]

I have both a Netgear C7000v2 as my cable modem and a very old Nighthawk R6700 serving as one of my AP's. Each allows local logins via HTTP, no problem. For their phone-based management apps I've experienced the same thing you're talking about.

It's their newer router/AP product that has that online account requirement no matter how you want to set it up (I'd used a desktop computer) and they encourage the use of a phone app (seriously?!? to *set up* an AP?!?). OK - I get lots of people have "smart phones" but I'm not one of them nor do I want one. I've also never used any "setup CD" as going through the interface is easier and offers more settings. I'm also an IT professional and deal with networking/wifi every day so don't need that hand holding (we won't go into how slow and poorly designed most JAVA based web interfaces are - even ones for professional gear). And I know that most people just don't "get it" and *do* need hand holding, but don't force people who don't need it to use your basic, crappy, setup routines. I didn't know that when I purchased that router/AP for mom's house. A little research indicated all of their current product has that limitation so I returned it and fired off an email to tell them I'd returned one of their products and why. For me, it's a deal breaker and excludes their product from consideration. I probably should have looked into flashing it with DD-WRT firmware, which would have fixed that issue, assuming it was available for the model I'd purchased, but I'm the one who has to support these things and just didn't want to do that for something I don't have access to all the time.

 

[DaveF]

Do you have the same SSID configured for both units?

Yes

 

[John Dirk]

Yes

Ah, so you're talking about the IOS threshold for determining when to switch to a stronger available network. Yep, that's definitely out of our control. I have the same issue and sometimes just switch manually.

 

[John Dirk]

It's their newer router/AP product that has that online account requirement no matter how you want to set it up (I'd used a desktop computer) and they encourage the use of a phone app (seriously?!? to *set up* an AP?!?). OK - I get lots of people have "smart phones" but I'm not one of them nor do I want one. I've also never used any "setup CD" as going through the interface is easier and offers more settings. I'm also an IT professional and deal with networking/wifi every day so don't need that hand holding (we won't go into how slow and poorly designed most JAVA based web interfaces are - even ones for professional gear). And I know that most people just don't "get it" and *do* need hand holding, but don't force people who don't need it to use your basic, crappy, setup routines. I didn't know that when I purchased that router/AP for mom's house. A little research indicated all of their current product has that limitation so I returned it and fired off an email to tell them I'd returned one of their products and why. For me, it's a deal breaker and excludes their product from consideration. I probably should have looked into flashing it with DD-WRT firmware, which would have fixed that issue, assuming it was available for the model I'd purchased, but I'm the one who has to support these things and just didn't want to do that for something I don't have access to all the time.

Couldn't agree more. Come to think of it, I did notice [and equally detest] this when I tried their Nighthawk M60 Mesh system. I would have tolerated it if the system had actually worked but it was the absolute worst of the ones I tried and went back to Costco within a week or two.

 

[BobO'Link]

The school I work for is all iOS (was Mac laptop now iPad) for *all* students. That not switching to a stronger network sooner thing in iOS was a major thorn in our wifi deployment. People would be walking down a hall and the device would sometimes drop connection for a second, or more (I've walked as much as 50' before it'd come back up), when doing that switch all because it waits too long. We had to go to APs in every classroom to help that situation and we then have to throttle the power down to prevent devices in one classroom from joining an adjacent AP instead.

 

[sfyalek]

I use Eero system at my 1000 sq.ft. apartment, both units are ethernet cable connected because the unit is put inside the cabinets. Wi-Fi nodes work better in the open space.
I use the ASUS Zen system at my 4500 sq.ft. home after a failed set up with the Linksys AC system. 3 of the 4 ASUS nodes are ethernet wired because my house is long so the signals can't be reached at the other end of the house. The Linksys does not auto switch the connection if one of the nodes does not work. The whole chain fail. ASUS can automatically pick up the signal from another node.

 

[kalm_traveler]

We use Unifi access points. When we remodeled our bathrooms a few years ago, we had a lot of the walls open. So we took advantage of the situation to lay Cat6 cables to each room. For wifi, we have 2 access points upstairs and 1 centrally located access point downstairs. All support the same network. Originally we only had one centrally located AP upstairs too, but my son’s bedroom didn’t have good coverage so we added one in his room. Bonus for that AP is that it gives us coverage in the yard, too.

After fiddling around with an older Asus router and my then-newer AC88u, luckily for me the AC88u's power supply melted and although I bought a replacement that made me fed up with it so I ended up switching to a bunch of separate components.

Now I'm running a little mini PC with PfSense, managed PoE switch, one UniFi AP (for now) for the main wifi network, separate NetGear wifi router in AP mode on its own 100mbps-limited VLAN for the guest wifi network and am debating picking up an newer MU-MIMO Unifi AP for a little better coverage and faster speeds in the part of the house where more wireless devices usually are.

The thing I like about sticking with all Ubiquiti APs is that the Unifi setup makes it nearly idiot proof to add more APs with the same SSIDs.

 

[Dave Upton]

I'll throw in my two cents here as well. My background like @John Dirk is in network engineering, so I'll try to keep this as non-technical as possible.

I was one of the early pioneers of mesh in the enterprise world, over 10 years ago when we were trying to cover a 150+ acre outdoor Toyota manufacturing facility. Cisco sent engineers out to help us get it working, and it did allow us to expand our coverage after some fiddling and a lot of money. It's a cool technology with a very specific use case - getting wifi extended to areas where you can't possibly run a cable.

Most commercial consumer grade mesh systems are decent but ultimately have cheap off the shelf radio chips which limit their ability to work through walls and in tough environments with lots of signal interference. If you really want amazing Wi-Fi, it behooves you to look into enterprise grade equipment. The reason is in the radio - the core of any wireless device.

Having spent most of my career managing, troubleshooting and configuring gear from a variety of big players like Cisco, Aruba, Aerohive (now Extreme), as well as Meraki and ubiquiti, my personal Wi-Fi setup at home is based on ruckus access points. Ruckus makes a very cost-effective enterprise-grade AP with a kick-ass radio. Even one ruckus access point will out perform many mesh systems. You can also run them in a multiple AP setup (Mesh or hardwired) quite easily by following a simple YouTube tutorial. They can be purchased on Amazon for a premium over consumer grade gear but I personally feel it's worth it. These will smoke any Orbi/Eero/Asus consumer grade solution in reliability and speed.

To run multiple units, you will ideally want to hardwire both to get the best performance. If you cant', you can run them as mesh using their app to configure it.

Once you do that, they will automatically share each others configuration via the Unleashed app, and operate on different channels, helping devices like iPhones, iPads, android phones etc automatically handoff to the closer AP with the best signal.

What this gets for me is 250mbps+ anywhere on my property, using only 2 R550 access points. compared to what many of us spend on our home theater setups, this is peanuts for the quality of life improvements it brings.

Again, the ruckus stuff is enterprise grade, so it just works - and never stops working, so it's worth the up front pain.

How do you do it? Pretty easily!

You can follow a video like this one below and be off and running in under a half hour with nothing but your smart phone and the ruckus unleashed app. Just be sure you buy the unleashed version of the APs like this.

 

[John Dirk]

Ruckus is a brand I've only seen in commercial environments but, after having viewed the video you shared, I believe that is a shame as they seem to strike the perfect balance between crap consumer level gear [talking to you Netgear] and overly complex quasi-commercial solutions such as the Ubiquiti line.

If I were starting from scratch I would definitely take a close look at Ruckus. As it stands I have accomplished basically the same thing as you [consistent speeds throughout my home in the 200 Mbps range] using a hodgepodge of cheap AP's from Tenda and [ugh] Netgear. I currently have four distributed AP's in addition to my main router but the administration task is definitely a bit of a headache compared to the Ruckus intelligent, centralized approach.

I do think the reviewer probably oversold the "Beamflex" feature. He's clearly talking about Beamforming but in modern [802.11AC] hardware both the client and router must support this to achieve any benefit. I've had dubious results with both the older 802.11N [Implicit} and 802.11AC [Explicit] iterations and currently have them disabled in my network.

 

[Johnny Angell]

Is Eero considered “crap consumer level gear”? All I know is that it is a vast improvement over my previous wifi/router and now I’ve got great coverage over all my house using only 2 of the 3 routers in the pack. A brief look at the prices for Ruckus tells me priced out of my range.