Laying bookshelf's on their side?

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by baja, May 7, 2003.

  1. baja

    baja Agent

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    I have a built in entertainment center in my house. The nitches for left and right fronts are 24"L x 12"H x 24"D. This leaves me with little option other than to lay the speaker on it's side. I am looking at Axiom M22ti's. Is this going to create any major issues or is there anything I need to do to the speaker? Also are there any such left and right speakers designed for horizontal use? Thanks in advance.
     
  2. MarkWC

    MarkWC Stunt Coordinator

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    Be very careful with this, some speakers will be greatly effected and others may notice only minor changes.

    Check out Ascend monitor 170's and if you have the cash check these out:

    http://www.mksound.com/satellite_speakers.html

    I was looking into demoing the S-100B. There are others here but the above is a sealed design which helps with enclosures.

    I emailed Paradigm on placing their Studio 20's on the sides and they said it be shouldn't be a problem. Their speakers excel on wide dispersion, and are close enough, on both vertical and horizontal axis' (according to the book and "honest" salesman).

    Also, the front baffles need to be flush with the front of the wall unit else you will have some serious reflections inside the enclosure. Does the enclosure also have a front door or is it open?

    Good Luck
     
  3. ross ish

    ross ish Stunt Coordinator

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    Kef Q15. They can be placed vertical or horizontal because of their uniQ design
     
  4. baja

    baja Agent

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    Thanks Mark! I have been looking at M&K's site recently and will have to check out the others mentioned. The front of the nitch will be speaker cloth mounted around a frame that will cover the opening, so the speaker can sit about an inch from the edge. I know it is less than perfect design "audio" wise but this is what I have to work with. This is actually a new HT going into a brand new house with a built in entertainment center, so I am building it from the floor up. The only real piece of equip I know I am going with is my HDRPTV, Pioneer Elite Pro530. I have the rear pre-wired for 3 ceiling mounts (thinking of Speakercraft Aim series). For the receiver I have been looking into the Marantz SR8200. I am also looking into SVS for a sub. I am going over to Paradigm's site to check those speakers out know. Any help in selection will be more than appreciated.
    Steve
     
  5. KrisMe

    KrisMe Auditioning

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    You should be aware of the effect of boundary conditions as well as rear porting when placing a speaker inside an enclosure. See this thread or do a search on this forum for "bookshelf" and "boundary".

    I have a very similar setup. Due to WAF I must place my speakers into an entertainment center. My rear ported Paradigm Atoms sounded much worse when enclosed.

    I'm very happy with my NHT M6 speakers which use an unported sealed design and also have a crossover switch that compensates for boundary conditions. These or the M5 might fit in your space as they run just fine horizontally. Check www.pricescan.com for some low (probably too low) from shady sounding stores. These may be useful in pricematching to a local dealer or someone reliable like OneCall.

    Many dealers will let you take home demos for auditions. This might be a good option to let your ears tell whether any of this might bother you.
     
  6. Brian Warren

    Brian Warren Stunt Coordinator

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    sounds like with the speaker crafts in the rear you are not going for timbe matching. this may be a mistake you will regret or may not.
    I had to put my preakers in a cabinet as well and at first was dissapointed. they are paradigm mini monitors. after a email to paradigm and working with foam egg crate,they are much better, not sure if its perfect but i have some more tweeking to do. paradigm rec keeping the grill cover on behing the cabinet cloth to maintain tonality and some other useful ideas. a front ported or no ported speaker may be better and buy from someone who will let you demo so you can see what works in your house. good luck.
     
  7. baja

    baja Agent

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    HHmmm...never thought about the rear porting issue..THANKS! Anyone know anything about the Klipsch RB-75's. They are front porting, I wonder how they work horizontally.
     
  8. StevieP

    StevieP Stunt Coordinator

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  9. rickey taylor

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    Did you look at the jbl s38s the are made to lay sideways.
     
  10. baja

    baja Agent

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    Stevie very interesting. I have never heard of them. We are neighbors, I am right across in Tampa. Is there somewhere local I can go to check these speakers out?
     
  11. MatthewK

    MatthewK Stunt Coordinator

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    You may want to check out the new Ascend Center speaker (340c) as it is 7.5" x 21" x 10.5". I love my 340c... it is really an excellent speaker and MAY work in your circumstances.

    I'd send them an email and ask them about usage in your circumstances.

    Matthew
     
  12. baja

    baja Agent

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    THANKS guy [​IMG] You are great [​IMG] in all your suggestions. You sure are keeping me busy checking out all these different suggestions. What I need to do now is try to find some of these speakers to test out in person. I was also looking into the NHT M6's, which acording to there application description look like they were made for this tye of installation. Do any of you guy's have any good on-line resources for these brands to buy??
     
  13. baja

    baja Agent

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    Matthew, the Ascend looks to be rear ported[​IMG]
     
  14. MarkWC

    MarkWC Stunt Coordinator

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    Email David at Ascend, they can include port blockers which are supposed to only limit the lower end extension and not effect the highs and midrange. Others have plugged the ports on these speakers and not noticed too much of a tonal change.

    I have the following entertainment center:

    http://www.jsp-industries.com/Pages/introhomethea.html

    Check out the Symphony without the bookends, #91 Cappucino.

    I am about to audition some Boston Acoustics VRM60 Bookshelves. Small enough to keep vertical and reknown as a quality bookshelves. They are rear ported as well, but I will try multiple variations to "tune" them as much as possible.

    One very important piece I pulled from one of your latter posts is that the speakers will be recessed an inch from the front of the enclosure. I would highly recommend you elevate the speakers with books and perhaps angle them slightly downward, if they are high, with some cheap doorstops or such. A speaker, on its side, rear ported, and recessed will struggle to sound as sound as one outside the enclosure.

    Check out some speakers that will fit vertically first.
     
  15. StevieP

    StevieP Stunt Coordinator

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    Baja,
    I grew up in Tampa, moved over here for work.

    Unfortunately the local dealer is a custom installer, and does not stock them.
    I tried when I bought my BP30's and Bp1X's, also he would not deal on price at all!

    A friend of mine had BP8's so I new the were quality speakers from looking and listening to his.
    So I ended up shopping e-bay and bought from A dealer in Jersey and paid shipping, but no tax.

    I am currently looking for a CLR 1000 or 2000 for my center to replace a Cerwin Vega center. So I don't have one you could listen to, but your welcome to come over and listen to the others!

    Steve.
     
  16. Chris A H

    Chris A H Stunt Coordinator

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    I have the Klipsch Synergy KB3.1 speakers on their side in an entertainment center. Doors that are glass on the top with a speaker grill with cloth backing on the bottom third cover both speakers.

    I have played with just about every possible combination of placements and positions, and also had friends bring over their bookshelf speakers to see what models worked best. I would agree with the following mentioned above:

    - go with front-ported or sealed design (rear-ported sounded constrained and muddy)
    - keep doors open when listening
    - leave the speaker grills on
    - place speaker as close to the front of the opening as possible
    - place high freq speakers to the outside for best imaging (to my ears)
    - get a speaker that fills up as much of the cabinet opening as possible

    I got the 3.1s due to the fact I like the Klipsch sound and (luckily) they fit in my cabinet space with about 1/2" to spare all around.

    Also take a look at this article from Home Theater Magazine on speaker placement, and page 2-3 discuss cabinet placements.
     
  17. baja

    baja Agent

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    I just got back from Sensious Sounds here in Tampa.....one word....WWWOOOOWWWW! They got some nice stuff. I explained all my "issues" and what he suggested was going with the Paradigm Reference Studio/CC center channel speaker as a left and right also. I saw that NHT M60 also say's you can do this. He also said that the rear port can be plugged if needed. What he suggested as the most important was to totally sound insulate each nitch. He also suggest that besides doing that on the cabinet the sub was in is to build it out so that the sub filled in the entire cabinet fitting flush. The guy sounded like he knows his stuff. He only currently had the Paradigm set up as a center but told me to just let him know and he will break out a pair and set them up in the sound room to try out. He also recomended going with the Paradigm PDR12 sub.
    What are your thoughts[​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  18. MarkWC

    MarkWC Stunt Coordinator

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    Baja, glad to see you are getting somewhere on your quest.

    With custom installation, and a custom price tag, has he suggested a tweeter mounted on the outside of the enclosure, sort of like a B&W design or Diva Swan idea?
    Since you are building from a scratch design or changeable template, it may be a way of cleaning up the clarity of your highs. Just a suggestion.....

    Also, the Studio 20s, which I almost purchased, are great with the Studio CC and the easiest to drive in the line up.
    The Studio 40's up front and 20's or ADP's would be a sweet setup, not sure too many people could disagree.

    A sound room is a start, you need to demo in house, especially speakers that will cost a minimum of $1000 before adding a sub and rears.

    Also, I would urge you to find some front ported speakers as well, you have plenty of space to fit these on their sides (or a sealed design). Check out KEF
     
  19. Jamey F

    Jamey F Stunt Coordinator

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    First, I just purchased a Set of Paradigm studio speakers. I think they are absolutely wonderful compared to many other brands, BUT...The Studio CC is the least impressive speaker out of the studio line (IMO). It is a good step up from the monitor line, but the other speakers in the studio line impressed me much more when compared to their monitor counterpart. It's specs for it's freq range aren't nearly as good as the 20's. Also, I don't know about plugging the rear port. It might not be the worst thing you could do, but if Paradigm thought it was a good idea, I doubt they would have put one there. All around, I think it's much less than an ideal solution when you're searching to buy new speakers.

    I may have to plug the rear port on my studio CC in several years (5+) from now when I go with a front projector and build in my speakers like you are, but I may have new speakers by then. I found a great deal, so I didn't want that one fact to keep me from getting what I wanted now.
     
  20. baja

    baja Agent

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    He did not mention anything about a tweeter mounted on the outside of the enclosure. His idea of plugging the port was only if absolutly needed, his feeling is that once the nitch was soundproofed this would probally not be necessary. If it did need to get plugged he felt the sub would more than make up for any loss in base response. He did say that it can make the speaker work slightly harder but that should not be a problem. He also mentioned that I could always just go with the studio 20 or 40 laying on it's side instead of using the CC for L&R fronts. They also carry KEF I did notice that was an enclosed speaker. I will have to look into that option also. Another thing that cought my eye was Samsung's new DLP projection TV's. Man they are SWEET!!! Brilliant picture with a very small footprint. I hear they are comming out with a 56", that one has my name on it..lol
     

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