La Dolce Vita - is it coming? (1 Viewer)

[JayHM]

To the person who said that Fellini's movies have always been sped up on Italian TV, could it be that La Dolce Vita was actually shot at 25fps? (I do believe a lot of European films were shot at 25.)

If that's the case, as to the PAL->NTSC conversion for this disc, they're either converting it to 24-Progressive (like most modern DVDs) or to 29.97-interlaced. The latter would merely entail adding a pulldown. Most likely though, they're doing the former, which would require intermittent frame-blending, and cause very noticable artifacts with horizontal movement. In either case, however, the running time of the original film remains unchanged! In other words, if La Dolce Vita was indeed shot at 25fps, then 167 mins would actually be the original running time.

 

[Brian PB]

I am certainly no expert in this area: I've never been to film school; I've neither shot nor projected a film either here or abroad. But from everything I've read, a European feature film from 1960 would have been shot and projected at a sync speed of 24fps. (Besides, why would Fellini have given a damn about the PAL television standard, anyway? I doubt he would've approved of seeing his beautiful mise-en-scène butchered through panning & scanning on small Italian televisions, so why shoot his films at a sync speed to make that process easier? Makes no sense.)

If the European sync speed standard has indeed changed to 25fps for theatrically projected feature films more recently, I would be interested to know the details (e.g. when the transition occurred).

 

[Brian PB]

I am certainly no expert in this area: I've never been to film school; I've neither shot nor projected a film either here or abroad. But from everything I've read, a European feature film from 1960 would have been shot and projected at a sync speed of 24fps. (Besides, why would Fellini have given a damn about the PAL television standard, anyway? I doubt he would've approved of seeing his beautiful mise-en-scène butchered through panning & scanning on small Italian televisions, so why shoot his films at a sync speed to make that process easier? Makes no sense.)

If the European sync speed standard has indeed changed to 25fps for theatrically projected feature films more recently, I would be interested to know the details (e.g. when the transition occurred).

 

[Gonzalo Merchan]

Perhaps large portions of the feature are 'out of sync' because as with most(all?) italian films of this era none of the sound was shot sync? I know I would certainly prefer to hear the original 'out of sync' audio as Fellini intended and we have loved for 40 years?

Depressing news all around.

 

[Gonzalo Merchan]

Perhaps large portions of the feature are 'out of sync' because as with most(all?) italian films of this era none of the sound was shot sync? I know I would certainly prefer to hear the original 'out of sync' audio as Fellini intended and we have loved for 40 years?

Depressing news all around.

 

[Kai Penttila]

I assure you, the PAL TV standard in no way affects the projection speed in cinemas here in Europe.

 

[Rich Malloy]

Bingo. When Koch-Lorber says "We did have to use a PAL master for the restoration, as all 35mm and NTSC materials that we located were of very poor quality" one has to ask: what about the 35mm elements used for the PAL transfer? And then one notices the "that we located" portion of the explanation.

It'll hopefully be decent, and I do have a few PAL>NTSC conversions that aren't displeasing to the eye. But an NTSC master from the same 35mm elements as used for the PAL master would be ideal. And that's what Criterion would do. And that's why Koch-Lorber ain't no Criterion.

 

[obscurelabel]

I am not up to date on the situation with latest on the DVD rights for this film. I heard second hand that both Koch-Lorber and Paramount claimed to have the U.S. rights. The print or prints of the film that have been exhibited in the past few months (coming to Atlanta in September) are from Paramount, no? I realize that theatrical and video rights can be held by different parties, but is there any word that Paramount may do their own DVD release from the film elements that they hold?

Thanks, and sorry if this has already been covered

 

[Brian PB]

Even if Paramount has access to better elements and could legally release their own version of La Dolce vita in Region 1, I think it would make very poor business sense to spend much money on it on the heels of the Koch Lorber special edition. While the film has a coterie of diehard fans, it is still a European art film with limited potential sales appeal in the big picture. Paramount would have to count on many double- and triple-dips to generate significant sales. Surely the corporate bean counters would nix such a release.

Paging Martin Blythe ...

 

[Brian PB]

Based on the comments of DVD producer (and Koch Lorber VP) Tim Hinsley and production manager V. Morante---both of whom have posted extensively about this release in the thread at the DVD Talk Forum---I believe Koch Lorber has acted in good faith for this release. I don't get the sense that they've cut corners or made a lot of purely economic decisions which have compromised the quality. It is also to KL's credit that they're speaking openly about the production history of this set before it's even been released (a very refreshing precedent).

I'm an optimist at heart, but I have high hopes for this release based on what I've read. I suspect many will wait to read the reviews before plunking down any money, which is a perfectly acceptable strategy. But to continue to criticize KL now doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[Rich Malloy]

I'm optimistic, too, Brian, but clearly Koch-Lorber has cut corners for economic reasons. Rather than doing the work of searching out the best elements and providing a brand-spanking new NTSC transfer, they're simply using the PAL master. I'm sure you understand the problems that arise in PAL>NTSC conversion, so no need to recount these again.

It this criticism makes no sense to you, then we'll simply have to agree to disagree. I hope this release will be good enough to justify a purchase, though I suspect the PAL version will prove the better option due to the "ghosting" effect in the NTSC. Now that it's so easy to go region/NTSC-free, there's no need to settle for R1 PAL>NTSC ports. And if Koch-Lorber really wants to be considered a premier DVD manufacturer, they'll have to do better. This approach is strictly second-tier.

 

[Rich Malloy]

That said, I want to add the following:

I hope it's a good release, and I will definitely hold off purchasing the other version until the Koch-Lorber disc hits the streets and has been put to the test. I remain optimistic.

Original mono track! Good for you, KL.

Honest production history! Also good for you, KL... I recall when the Wellspring reps were here last year touting their new commitment to quality. Improved, yes, but hardly top-tier. And they were less than upfront about their transfers, promising the world in some cases ("RAN" masterworks edition), but never quite delivering on that promise.

So, remaining optimistic...

 

[Gonzalo Merchan]

I have to agree with Rich on this. If they somehow can't manage to find decent 35mm elements for La Dolce Vita (which itself is a highly doubtful claim) then delay the release until you can find them. Are they really trying to tell us that somehow the elements are lacking on La Dolce Vita when Criterion has released excellent transfers of the earlier Fellini films Nights of Cabiria, La Strada, Variety Lights, and The White Sheik? It's quite shameful that the compromise of a PAL>NTSC transfer, something which would be totally unacceptable on even the lowest tier release of a major studio, is somehow acceptable on La Dolce Vita. I consider this film more than simply a "European art film with limited potential sales appeal", this film is among the most influential movies ever made and it is truly disheartening to see it being treated like a second class product when we know there are companies out there who would treat this film right.



One only has to look at every previous releases by Koch/Fox/Lorber to see this is their standard operating procedure. This company has released some of the ugliest looking DVD's in my collection. What they did to Breathless is practically criminal.

 

[Brian PB]

Fox Lorber and Koch Lorber are completely different companies (Richard Lorber co-founded both, but that's the only connection)--so it is unfair to criticize the latter for the sins of the former.

You guys obviously wish to believe that Koch Lorber is lying---that there were pristine 35mm elements available to them which they chose to ignore, in order to save money and shaft the consumer (by using the already-available PAL master). Foreign film rights are quite complex. Even Criterion has had to use some less-than-optimal elements to produce their DVDs (even when better elements existed, but weren't available to them: see The Seven Samurai for one prominent example).

If KL says they used the best source available, I believe them (gullible me ...). If they make good on their promise of bettering the (by all acounts) gorgeous Medusa transfer, then there is no way this release will be "second-tier."

 

[Thomas T]

After reading all the comments above, wouldn't it make more sense to to view the finished K-L product and THEN do the criticizing? Heaven knows many HTFers are more than happy to criticize (usually justifiably, sometimes not) DVDs that do not meet their criteria upon release ... now they're being bashed before hand. Well ... I suppose it saves time to do it now than later thus freeing up your time but still I suppose I'm in the minority who finds it a disturbing trend.

 

[Patrick McCart]

I caught La Dolce Vita on TCM and it was a BEAUTIFUL NTSC transfer (at least to my eyes).

Why can't Fox Lorber use whatever TCM used?

 

[Gonzalo Merchan]

Why indeed.

 

[JPCinema]

I thought the print shown on TCM looked awful .
I do have the Medusa disc and aside from the PAL speed up, the print itself is stunning!

 

[Kai Penttila]

No question, the speed-up is a disadvantage, but your description of its effect is, shall we say, slightly exaggerated.

 

[Brian PB]

FYI: Mr. Blythe has declined to comment about the dispute over the rights to La Dolce vita or any release plans Paramount might have for the future (which isn't surprising, but you never know unless you ask ...).