Kevin Smith vs.Tim Burton over Planet of the Apes ending! (1 Viewer)

[Gary Tooze]

K. Smith is the worst excuse for a director currently working today ( will he be working tomorrow ? )... the only way he can keep in the spotlight is to criticize other directors who are infinitely more taleneted than he is ie. Paul Thomas Anderson, Tim Burton...
Smith should crawl in a hole and be forgotten about forever...
IMHO
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[Edited last by Gary Tooze on August 11, 2001 at 03:24 PM]

 

[Edwin-S]

--the only way he can keep in the spotlight is to criticize other directors who are infinitely more taleneted than he is ie. Paul Thomas Anderson, Tim Burton...--
Just because you think these directors are stellar doesn't mean everyone else has to too. He is entitled to his opinion, as are you and anyway, according to other reports, he was being completely facetious.
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[Vince Maskeeper]

K. Smith is the worst excuse for a director currently working today ( will he be working tomorrow ? )... the only way he can keep in the spotlight is to criticize other directors who are infinitely more taleneted than he is ie. Paul Thomas Anderson, Tim Burton...

The funniest part about this whole thing is that what you posted is terribly ironic. The reason this whole situation happens is that Kevin hangs out online, specifically on his own message boards over at Viewaskew.
By being a regular guy and taking parts in the discussions going on, he forgets he is NOT just a regular guy and that silly things he posts will be quoted. He's insulated on the VA boards, and that comfort makes him say things that cause problems.
The irony is, if you were a known director, the post you just made would be quoted just the same. Your dis of KS would be translated as a serious statement, and someguy on AintItCoolNews would be talking about how you're slagging him off just because you're looking to get attention.
Again- I'm sure that Kevin wasn't being serious- and (like the Magnolia fiasco) this whole thing has been blown out of proportion because Kevin is a different breed of guy who takes part bullshitting on the boards just like us. Just imagine if your thoughts on some film or director you posted here bacame an article in Variety with response from the director you criticized.
-Vince
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AIM: VinceMaskeeper
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[Gary Tooze]

Kevin is a different breed of guy ...

No excuse... IMHO
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[Edwin-S]

---wow... thanks...---
You're welcome.
---Just because you think these directors are stellar...---
---Funny... I don't recall saying that at all...---
Okay, not in those exact words, however, you did say:
---other directors who are infinitely more taleneted than he is ie. Paul Thomas Anderson, Tim Burton...--
I, naturally, took this to mean that these directors were held in high regard by you, therefore, I used the "stellar" term as short hand. I will try to be more literal next time.
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[Edited last by Edwin-S on August 12, 2001 at 03:45 AM]

 

[Sam Hatch]

I'm with Gary (no, not in that way - my girlfriend would object).
Kevin Smith IS a regular guy. A regular fanboy at that. And a regular fanboy with a lot of drive who managed to work himself into the film industry. The bad thing is that once he got there, he never grew. His 'New Jersey Chronicles' are alot like the silly crap any of us here and our high school friends probably wrote back in the day - to revel in how 'cool' we and are adventures were.
At least Quentin Tarantino reveled in a borrowed world of cult cinema classics. If you discount him as a hack, at least it made him a very enjoyable one. Kevin Smith comes off as a watered down Quentin who will never quit until you know every aspect of his in-joke-y fanboy world. I suppose he'll always have an audience - because all he has to do is have his characters mention 'Star Wars' or a popular comic and kids will go nuts.
And now that his old-school hanging at the mall life has been replaced by a Hollywood one, guess what his new in-joke material revolves around? Jay and Silent Bob get played by Ben and Matt??? How wonderfully, vomit-inducing postmodern!
Don't you get it? Ben and Matt were IN other Kevin Smith movies, but now they're playing themselves playing two characters. One of which...get this...IS Kevin Smith! *mind explodes from cleverness overdose*
I know you're supposed to write what you know, but this guy either has to do some living or get some new material elsewhere. And that's just the writing. I suppose I'll go easy on his mediocre directing since this is long enough already.
So even as "pretentious" as P.T. Anderson supposedly is, he can make a helluva movie. Tim Burton as well - you don't see him making films about goofing around in Burbank. Or when he does, he comes out with something as beautiful as 'Edward Scissorhands'. These guys are filmmakers, and Kevin is just a fanboy who happens to make films. Hopefully someday he'll step up to the plate, prove me wrong and make something that matters.
Oh, yeah.... IMHO.
I'm off to the basement to dig up all those old stories about driving around in my Plymouth Satellite during high school. Could be a goldmine!
And yes, I too am sure that his 'Apes' comment was made in fun, not as a serious challenge to Tim.
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"Negative. I am a meat popsicle."

 

[Gary Tooze]

Kevin Smith...
Every detail I can think of to praise a director is void in Mr. K. Smith.
His positioning of characters and objects within the frame ( mise en scene ) is, aside from true "B" movies, the worst I have ever seen... ever.
His plots and dialogue meander around with so little direction as if they had just been re-written, which wouldn't surprise me of being the truth. So, I am sick of people saying he is a good writer, but weak director. He is weak in both areas.
His "spotlight" stems from controversy ( I suppose he learned this from the Catholic Church picking on "Dogma" and he ended up selling a few more tickets ) and so he intentionally strives for it... criticism of other directors is like the prime directive - you just don't break it. Why ? Because when you reach that stature of artists, you have come to realize that "film" is "art" and therefore subjective. Either you get something out of it or not... you don't say "Magnolia should have been 1 hour shorter", because "it was" what "it was"... this is the way PTA chose to express the story. EXAMPLE: You never hear Scorsese ( or any other prominent director ) say that Aronofsky should have used a different lighting in the last scene in "Pi" for example... it was Aronofsky form of expression. It is like saying Van Gough should have used less blue in "Starry Starry Night" ... or Dali's canvas for "The Hallucinogenic Toreador" was too large... or too small. If you don't "get it" then move on... We can make those judgments because we are not at that level of artistry... but Smith doing so is lowering himself to our standards... and if I want onions like that I have a whole Forum full of them that I can disregard. We don't need some clown who others will give stature to, spouting off... in jest or not. I guess this is the only place left for Smith to be heard, Producers and Studious won’t touch the guy…
I like what Brook K said best “ the actors all seem to have this grin on their face like “hey, I’m in a Kevin Smith movie… and this is all a joke”… “what a joke” indeed.
Kevin Smith is at the center of the cultural void known as North America ( well okay, Jerry Springer of at the center, but Smith is not far from the vortex )... throw in a bunch of "Hollywood stars" with a touch of controversy and few popular buzz word phrases and try to cash in at the box office. I can only say, that I am glad the Kevin Smiths’ of this world are given less of a stage ( as he attempts to cling to it with his bombastic comments in Internet Forums and webpages), and the true ( or should I say “true-er” ) artists seemingly being heard even more so.
I love his comments about PTA and "ego"… funny, PTA’s ego is not so great as he needs to stick himself in every film he makes in a cameo-esq roll… that to me is overblown ego. Did Smith actually think his own inclusion would enhance the presentation ??? Give his art some substance ? or did he want to have some minute glory too... like posting on the Internet and make outlandish comments... knowing your current stature will give it excessive airtime and discussion.
Edwin-S
quote: I, naturally, took this to mean that these directors were held in high regard by you, [/quote] Please don't ever infer what YOU think people mean by their statements. I think my cat is infinitely more talented than Kevin Smith, but I don't think he's "stellar" either... taking people's meaning out of context is probably the most reprehensible thing about posting in a Forum... someone is going to take it upon themselves to tell everyone else what your meaning is... and be totally inaccurate.
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[Edited last by Gary Tooze on August 12, 2001 at 09:31 AM]

 

[Christian Behrens]

Gary,
Why do you even bother? I thought about answering to some of the things you said, but let's face it: you don't like Kevin Smith, and nothing he says or does (or anybody else here or anywhere) will change that.
Thus any attempt of a discussion is a complete waste of time. You should just ignore him; don't you have better things to do with your time?
Having said that, however, I and many others like Kevin Smith and what he does. Just accept it, because you are also not going to change that.
-Christian

 

[Dave F]

All this time, and I never realized that filmaking was a competition to find out who is the better director.

-Dave
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DVD List

 

[Brian Champ]

Well, yes it is pretty well documented, Gary's dislike of Kevin Smith... but I will agree with just about everything he said... he has quintessentially hit the nail on the head for what I too, feel this guy is all about... and to Gary's detractors:
Christian Behrens

All this time, and I never realized that filmaking was a competition to find out who is the better director.

Yeah, what a strange thing... people discussing who is the better director... which is the better film. Welcome to a Forum buddy...

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Up Pompei !

 

[Kenny Goldin]

Give his art some substance ?

Why is it some people here think every movie is supposed to be a work of art? I mean I can see movies like 2001, Ben-Hur, or Lawrence of Arabia as "art" but come on...I love Kevin Smith's movies becasue I want to laugh. And he is damn good at making me laugh. I also love all three of the movies I mentioned above. I guess that is the great thing about movies though...What I love you hate, and I am sure you love some movies that I would hate...but I don't care. Hey I am glad you like whatever you like, I hope it is on a really nice DVD you can enjoy...but I am not one of these people that thinks movie=art. especially these days. Hollywood has lost the grandeur it once had. I watched Spartacus last night...nothing like that will ever be made again. It is all about the money these days. And I am sure kevin Smith is as big a money grubber as the rest, but I feel like my $20 I spent to get the DVD was worth it. But I don't consider it "art."
Well I am clearly ranting right now and not making any sense, so forget it.
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Jay and Silent Bob in
CLERKS

 

[Christian Behrens]

Brian,

I suppose the same things could be said about your response Christian... actually about all 200+ posts of yours... why bother at all...

With all due respect, I doubt you have read all my postings on this forum, let alone the discussions I participated in.
And this is what it's all about, discussions. But a discussion is not possible the way the position was presented, not showing a sign to move one inch from it. That's all I was saying.
To me that makes no sense and *I* personally find it a waste of my time to just knock someone or something I don't like. I like to spend my time a little more constructively and with an open mind, because I might learn something.
And because of this, I'll stay out of this thread until a normal discussion can take place.
-Christian

 

[LawrenceK]

If only there were more directors like Kevin Smith out there today. In an industry full of CGI, non-stop camera moves, and rapid-fire edits, Kevin Smith goes out and creates movies that get back to what makes a movie entertaining: the characters, the dialogue and the story. Kevin Smith seems to be one of the only directors out there who realizes that visual flair does not make a good film. Kevin Smith makes films with a budget of virtually nothing, yet they are ALWAYS entertaining and often thought provoking. In a season filled with disappointments, Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back looks to me like the movie that will save the summer (if any film could).

I love his comments about PTA and "ego"… funny, PTA’s ego is not so great as he needs to stick himself in every film he makes in a cameo-esq roll… that to me is overblown ego. Did Smith actually think his own inclusion would enhance the presentation ??? Give his art some substance ?

As far as I know, Kevin Smith has never made any quotes about PTA's "ego". From what I have read, Kevin, and everyone at View Askew, is a big fan of Boogie Nights. Kevin made a few public comments about the length of Magnolia (like MANY people on the internet have done) and it resulted in an uproar. In regards to Smith being in his movies, he originated a popular on-screen character, and has continued to reprise the role in his other films because there is demand for it, and because he probably enjoys it. Were Hitchcock's appearances in his movies only there to "Give his art some substance" or to "enhance the presentation"?

 

[Ken_McAlinden]

criticism of other directors is like the prime directive - you just don't break it. Why ? Because when you reach that stature of artists, you have come to realize that "film" is "art" and therefore subjective. Either you get something out of it or not...

...but for the satirist, nothing is sacred, especially artistic pretension. This is beside the point, however, since Kevin Smith had no intention of criticising Burton, so we are talking about a single instance of Smith saying that he thought PTA was fiscally irresponsible dropping a large amount of other people's Jack on a film so personal that there was little to no hope of recouping it. Howard Hawks was critical of High Noon, and he made Rio Bravo as a reaction to it. Now that's how a feud should be waged!
Regards,
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Ken McAlinden
Livonia, MI USA

 

[JasenP]

Not to throw gas on the off-topic fire but...I'm gonna.
quote: His positioning of characters and objects within the frame ( mise en scene ) is, aside from true "B" movies, the worst I have ever seen... ever.[/quote]
Smith has noted on several occasions that he is not the best at Cinematography. To me it doesn't matter. All of his films are dialogue driven, not visual masterpieces.
Does anyone criticize My Dinner WIth Andre for it's lack of visual style? I've never been distracted by it, because I am engrossed with the dialogue.
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"Strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government!"

350+ Reasons why I drive A 1991 Cavalier.
[Edited last by JasenP on August 13, 2001 at 08:56 AM]
[Edited last by JasenP on August 13, 2001 at 08:57 AM]

 

[Scott Weinberg]

Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in on this whole Kevin Smith thing.
As much as I respect the opinions above, I'd contend that Smith is a damn fine filmmaker. Does he aspire to be the next David Lean or Steven Spielberg? Clearly not.
But if you're going to criticize a guy who makes dialogue-driven, somewhat sloppily directed comedies, you could start with critical darling Woody Allen. Yes, Woody Allen is a great filmmaker, but look at his first four or five movies and you'll find the same rampant indulgent silliness that is so prevalent in Smith's films.
But the bottom line is that these movies are funny to me. I'm certainly not going to call someone an idiot if they're not a fan of Smith's work, but to hear some of the criticisms leveled at him, you'd think KS was a worse filmmaker than Edward D. Wood Jr.
I've seen marked improvement in Smith's directorial skills in each successive feature he's put out. His writing has always been spot-on, if maybe a tad rambling in a few cases.
If I could echo the opinions of an earlier participant in this thread, I'd take any of Kevin Smith's movies over garbage like Tomb Raider and Pearl Harbor any day of the week.
Is he in any danger of winning a Best Director Oscar anytime soon? Not likely. Has he earned his fame and fortune? Most definitely. I respect a guy like Smith 50 times more than most of the studio-run hack puppet directors that churn out the chum every week.
As always, I wrote the above statements and therefore don't think it's necessary to add "IMO". "IMO" is a silly and redundant acronym.
P.S. I also respect any filmmaker so joyously vulgar in this pathetically PC culture we currently live in.
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Scott
TheAngryJew's Movie Reviews at HBS.com
AOL IM: TheAngryJew29
[Edited last by Scott Weinberg on August 13, 2001 at 11:08 AM]

 

[Ken_McAlinden]

As always, I wrote the above statements and therefore don't think it's necessary to add "IMO". "IMO" is a silly and redundant acronym.

I tend to agree, but it is more efficient than either the above quoted explanation or my pathetic and unnecessary response to it which you are now reading IMNSHO...AFAIK...IIRC...EIEIO.

Regards,
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Ken McAlinden
Livonia, MI USA

 

[Kevin Leonard]

Damn double posts...see below
[Edited last by Kevin Leonard on August 13, 2001 at 03:00 PM]

 

[Al Fischer]

Sam, You should see a movie before commenting on it! Damon and Affleck do not play Jay and Silent Bob or Kevin Smith. They play themselves making Good Will Hunting II. You are posting a review/comment based upon seeing a joke from the trailer. Your point would be better taken if you had the correct facts!!
Go see the movie and laugh your ass off when you see who does play Jay and Silent Bob. I won't say who does because the entire scene is hilarious, as is the rest of the movie.

 

[Kevin Leonard]

Quote:

That's because My Dinner doesn't aspire to be an epic and stays in one place. When you think about it, Louis Malle had a hell of a job on that movie. He was basically filming a play, and there's only so many angles one can shoot of two people talking. And it's to Malle's credit that he was able to do such a fine job. Not to discredit the editing or writing, however.
Smith's movies, with the exception of Clerks, feature dozens of characters and take place in several locations. I honestly believe that had Smith actually moved the camera around and placed his actors properly within the frame, my enjoyment of Dogma would have shot up greatly. As it stands, it's a film that has a lot of great dialogue, but I'd be hard pressed to come up with any particular moment that stood out.
Their is only one time (so far) where Smith's directorial style has perfectly meshed with his writing, and that was the above mentioned Clerks. Why? Because to my eyes and ears, it's a lot like My Dinner With Andre. That is, basically a play being filmed. I don't think one would have any trouble adapting it for the stage. It sticks (for 95% of the film) to two locations and very little goes on in the way of action. It's all dialogue-driven, so the static shots work to its advantage.
I could go on about his other works, but my opinion still stays the same. Smith is one of the best writers around, but is also one of the worst directors around. But if putting up with amateurish direction means we get films like Clerks, Chasing Amy and, hopefully, Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back, then I can live with it.
And regarding the subject: I'm still puzzled as to why Smith would criticize PotA. I'm sure it was in fun, and I really don't want to add fuel to the fire, but I can't help but think part of this whole fiasco was to drum up more publicity for Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. Just a theory.
[Edited last by Kevin Leonard on August 13, 2001 at 03:00 PM]