JVC 723 converts 4 x 3 to 16 x9

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Ernest, Jul 28, 2001.

  1. Ernest

    Ernest Supporting Actor

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    The JVC 723 just keeps improving what already is a good product. The 723 just ate up DUNE 2000 and the original Planet of the Apes by converting both letterbox 4 x 3 to 16 x 9. Picture quality was excellent, better than many of my anamorphic DVD's. If you did not know these titles were in 4 x 3 you would be fooled to thinking you were watching a true anamorphic DVD.
    Crimson Tide and Tombstone are next. I already tested both DVD's and the player reformated them to 16 x 9. Now lets see if the 723 can improve upon these to letterbox DVD's.
    Another point, I think the chroma bug is alot about nothing. The 723 does not experience this so called problem. I also tested my Pioneer and Samsung players by viewing Superman, Ben Hur and Demetris and I see nothing unsual with the reds in these three DVD's. I don't know what I am looking for and I can't find it.
     
  2. GlennH

    GlennH Cinematographer

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    Glenn
    I agree, this is a great feature of your player as well as the Panasonic RP91, which I have.
    As to the chroma bug, here is more information that will help you identify it (I don't know if the JVC has it or not), although you may want to remain blissfully unaware.
    http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...ug-4-2001.html
     
  3. rin

    rin Stunt Coordinator

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    The JVC does not have the chroma bug as it uses the Mediamatics chip. I just got my 723, and after owning only Toshiba players for the last four and a half years, I'm still getting used to the little quirks of this new player.
    Ernest,
    how do you set your screen and progressive modes to take advantage of this(scaling?) feature of the 723?
    BTW, Toy Sory 1 & 2 and The Emperor's New Groove exhibit some of the most noticeable chroma problems I've seen(On my Toshiba that is)the JVC puts out a beautiful picture with these titles.
    Thanks,
    rin
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    My Home Theater
     
  4. Ernest

    Ernest Supporting Actor

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    Rin in answer to your question.
    1. Set the switch on the back of the player to 525P for progressive scan.
    2.Hook up three video cables to component video which feed into your HD TV.
    3. Select "on screen" on the remote and the set the player "monitor type" to 16:9 Normal.
    You are all set to enjoy progressive scan video and the player will reformat those properly flagged letterbox DVD's to 16 X 9. For those DVD's not flagged correctly use the player's Zoom feature.
     
  5. Phil Nichols

    Phil Nichols Second Unit

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    Ernest,
    What will the JVC723's zoom do to anamorphic DVD's when set to progressive?
    (I have a 16X9 TV and I'm interested in eliminating the top and bottom black bars you get with 2.35:1 anamorphic DVD's when in progressive mode with a DVD player.)
    Thanks,
     
  6. Dan Hitchman

    Dan Hitchman Cinematographer

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    Phil,
    You won't get much support for your idea around here.
    In order to do what you're describing, you'd be cutting the sides of the picture to "lose" the black bars on 2.35:1 movies. That's movie fan blaspheme in my book.
    Now, on the other hand, if you wanted to "anamorphise" 2.35:1 images to project it onto a 2.35:1 screen with a 2.35:1 anamorphic lens with a 4:3 panel digital projector or a 1.78:1 anamorphic lens with a 16x9 paneled digital projector, you'd need a home theater PC with scaling software, or a 16x9 projector like the Sony 10HT or Sanyo PLV-60 that crops the top and bottom black bars of the 2.35:1 image (on anamorphic enhanced DVDs) and squeezes that portion of the frame into the 1.78:1 panel. You can then shift the image up if you run into subtitled movies with the titles spilling off onto the lower black bar. The ISCOII lens with either of these LCD projectors would work the best.
    Dan
    [Edited last by Dan Hitchman on July 29, 2001 at 07:42 PM]
     
  7. rin

    rin Stunt Coordinator

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    Ernest,
    thanks for the lesson on how to hook up a dvd player but I think you misunderstood my question. I was more interested in knowing how you would set your monitor and progressive settings in the preferences menu. Like I mentioned before, I am still getting used to this player and it's features. Toshiba only had one progressive mode so there were no choices and no room for operator error. The JVC definitely offers more versatility but with it comes complexity.
    I did try it and have to agree that POTA looks very good. I don't have Dune 2000 but I tried David Lynch's version and the JVC did an admirable job with it. I'll try The Abyss and Armeggedon soon as well. I did notice that The Princess Bride was not displayed properly in this mode. You mentioned using the player's zoom mode on discs such as this. Is there a way to get rid of the zoom icon while in zoom mode?
    The JVC manual doesn't really go into a lot of detail on certain things so thanks, Ernest, for illuminating these features.
    rin
    ------------------
    My Home Theater
     
  8. Robert George

    Robert George Screenwriter

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    The achilles heel of the JVC is that one cannot manually select the "zoom" mode for non-enhanced discs that have not been encoded with the letterbox flag that instructs the player to use zoom mode. Unfortunately, a high percentage of letterboxed discs (at least a third) do not contain the proper encoding for the JVC to use. The Panasonic RP91 does allow manual selection of the zoom mode.
     
  9. Jay_E

    Jay_E Stunt Coordinator

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  10. Robert George

    Robert George Screenwriter

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    Jay:
    Is the "zoom" function you are referring to the same as what the JVC does when it rescales 4:3 letterboxed material automatically, or is this a simple multi-step digital zoom such as is found on Toshibas, and a few other models?
     
  11. Jay_E

    Jay_E Stunt Coordinator

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    Robert,
    I think the first step of the "zoom +" is the same as the "auto rescale 4:3 letterbox". If you keep pressing the "zoom +" it will continue to digitally zoom. I would think it would be odd (and unnecessary) to include 2 different methods to do a digital zoom. The JVC manual is pretty poor in this regard. I'll see if I can do test and get more info on this. I have not used the Panasonic, but from what I have read it appears that it and the JVC do approximately the same job of rescaling (zooming) 4:3 letterbox titles.
    Jay
     
  12. Phil Nichols

    Phil Nichols Second Unit

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    Dan Hitchman:
    Dan, I'm not trying to get support for this and I've heard all of the OAR crowd's (emotional) arguments against image size tweaking before.
    I've had an Elite 16X9 58" RPTV for over 1 3/4 years and have not yet bought a DVD player - and will not buy one until one comes out that will permit us to do what PC paint and photo editing software has allowed us to do for years - that is adjust the size of the images while maintaining AR (which is what the JVC723 and RP91 DVD players are providing on non-anamorphics) and ideally, even adjusting the X-Y dimensions independently of each other (which is what the new Malata and CineULTRA DVD players provide).
    I'm a HT movie fan and in fact purchased the Elite not for HDTV at all, but because of the design of it's video circuits, screen, CRT guns, and lenses - which throw out a line doubled/3:2 pulldown movie image equivalent to a FPTV setup, but just smaller (and brighter if I desire). My 10 -12 foot viewing distance in my HT room is already beyond the video sweet spot (about 7 feet) for a 58" screen but still adequately gets you "into" most movie scenes - for 1.85:1 OAR films which are at near maximum height on my 16X9 screen.
    However, with 2.35:1 and larger images we are way foo far out of the sweet spot unless we move our chairs up at least 4 feet. I watch a lot of 2.35:1 and larger films through the resulting narrow "gun slit" (my Elite will zoom 2.35:1 non-anamorphics to equal a 2.35:1 anamorphic size - while maintaining OAR) and with 95% of them, in 95% of the scenes in the films, image information on the far right and left 4" of screen could be eliminated with no detrimental effect. At least no detrimental effect when compared to the higher priority spectacular effect we get when the full dimensions of our screen are filled up with image.
    The JVC723 and RP91 players use Genesis deinterlacer chips with built-in digital scaling (OAR-maintaining zoom). The Malata and CineULTRA players use Mediamatics chips with built-in pixel-level digital scaling (OAR-maintaining zoom) and in addition pixel-level image shaping (independent X-Y adjustment).
    I think that these four DVD players' scaling and shaping modes may permit me to, while in progressive mode for the player, increase the height of 2.35:1 anamorphics a little and crop the sides a little so that my full screen dimensions are utilized.
    I was merely asking Ernest if the JVC's zoom steps worked with 2.35:1 progressive mode anamorphics so the upper/lower black bars could be tweaked a bit.
    P.S. Against the cries of the OAR-or-Bust HT crowd, I'm willing to bet that the millions of viewers that over the years seem to have been perfectly content with Paning-and-Scanning of movies to fill their 4:3 screens will also - once 16X9 TV's are in all their homes by the millions - want DVD and HDDVD movies reformatted so as to be Panned-and-Scanned to 16X9 size! However, in this case much less image will be lost because Pan-and-Scan from 2.35:1 to 16X9 is much less "destructive" that Pan-and-Scan from 2.35:1 to 4:3.
    It seems to me that even if someone is an OAR fanatic, they would occasionally want the simple zooming/X-Y stretching flexibility in their $400 to $8000 DVD players that $39.95 PC programs provide.
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    Phil N.
     
  13. Robert George

    Robert George Screenwriter

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    Jay:
    A simple zoom will not address the issue of monitors that lock in "full" mode when fed a 480P signal. The 4:3 image must be rescaled to 16:9 before being output to the monitor to match the feature I am referring to. It is my understanding that the JVC will only do this in the one mode that is "auto". I do not believe the scaling mode is manually accessible.
     
  14. Jay_E

    Jay_E Stunt Coordinator

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  15. Robert George

    Robert George Screenwriter

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    Okay Jay, let's do it this way. Put your TV in "full" mode. Put in Titanic. This does not have the letterbox bit, so the JVC will not automatically rescale the image. You will see an image that is stretched horizontally with wide black letterbox bars.
    Can you resize this image with a mode in the player that stretches the image only vertically without cutting off the sides?
     
  16. DanG

    DanG Stunt Coordinator

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  17. Matt_Stevens

    Matt_Stevens Supporting Actor

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    Dan,
    Only 1/3 of the 2.35:1 films being made are shot in Super35. Anamorphic is alive and well and easier to use, since lenses are easier to come by.
    Now my question is this... Does HBO, when they stupidly change 2.35:1 to 1.85:1 for HDTV, do they secure more open matted versions of SUPER 35 films like T2, THE MATRIX and ID4, or do they simply zoom them in?
    See, if the 2.35:1 Super35 films are simply opened up a bit, I can live with that. But if they are just zoomed in and cropped, that is not acceptable.
    I will have my very first HDTV next week and am considering the options for HDTV programming and HBO is among them, but they crop, damn it!
    And Dan, in a few years, I'd imagine most DVD players will have the zoom/scaling features of the new JVC/Panasonic/Malata, so hopefully that will shut the Joe Six Pack's the hell up. [​IMG]
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    www.deceptions.net/superman
     
  18. rin

    rin Stunt Coordinator

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    quote: I think the first step of the "zoom +" is the same as the "auto rescale 4:3 letterbox". If you keep pressing the "zoom +" it will continue to digitally zoom.[/quote]
    Here's why I disagree:
    A 4:3LB image as seen on a 16:9 display is vertically squished (horizontally stretched if you prefer). It is possible to manually "zoom" discs such as these but the squished image "zoomed" will only give you a larger version of this squished, out of proportion image. This is not scaling.
    The 4:3LB discs(POTA,Dune 2000, etc.)which have the proper "flag" are automatically "scaled" to 16:9 resulting in an image with the correct proportions.
    Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    rin
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    My Home Theater
     
  19. Jay_E

    Jay_E Stunt Coordinator

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    Robert,
    I guess I don't watch enough non-anamorphic titles. I was confused about exactly what you were saying until your last post. Then I realized we were not talking about the same thing. I don't have Titanic but here's how the JVC works with Capricorn One (non-anamorphic letterbox 2.35:1) with the TV in FULL mode. It squeezes the image and puts black bars on the sides so there are black bars on all 4 sides. When I press the zoom key it fills the screen on the sides in the proper aspect ratio (I think it might cut off a very small amount on the sides) and leaves small top/bottom black bars. This gives a better picture than doing the zoom on my TV (my Mits. does not lock into full mode).
    You said:
    quote: You will see an image that is stretched horizontally with wide black letterbox bars. [/quote]
    With the JVC in “16:9 Normal” mode you never get a stretched picture in the incorrect aspect ratio (even if the letterbox flag is missing) so it never has to stretch only the vertical. Since I rarely watch non-anamorhpic letterbox titles I thought this was the way it worked for all titles, but after some re-reading some old posts on the AVS forum I now realize that with some titles (with the letterbox flag) it will do this automatically. So the first method is auto squeeze then manual zoom. The second method does them both automatically or one could say that it leaves it unsqueezed and then vertically stretches it.
    Now here is the rub. There is no way to compare (on a letterbox flagged DVD) the quality of the 2 methods because on these discs there is no way to get it to do just the squeeze/add side bars step without also doing the auto zoom. I guess with my better understanding of the issue I can see that it is possible for the auto rescale to do a better job than the semi-manual method above. It’s too bad we can’t directly compare the 2 methods on the same DVD to see how different they are. Now I know why I primarily watch anamorphic DVDs. This other stuff makes you have to think too much. Thanks for the discussion.
    Jay
    [Edited last by Jay_E on July 31, 2001 at 11:06 AM]
     
  20. Jamie Cole

    Jamie Cole Stunt Coordinator

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    Well, since this is a thread on the new JVC, I don't think this is too far off-topic:
    This is the absolute best $250 investment I have ever made. I can't believe the difference this player has made in my viewing experience. Besides what it does for 4:3 (finally, oh finally "Wizard of Oz" looks right on my 16:9 TV), the difference between interlaced and progressive scan has been, for me, almost as sharp as moving up from LD to DVD. Simply amazing.
    While the functionality may be a little convoluted at times (the aforementioned zooming/scaling thing ... and my TV handles this for non-flagged DVDs so no worries), I did after all only pay $250 for progressive scan.
    Also, dang if I haven't been living with the chroma bug on my old Toshiba player. The JVC eliminated this unsung but very noticeable problem, and that may just be why I'm so elated.
    The JVC is flat-out lovely. I couldn't be more pleased.
    ~Jamie
     

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