Justice League (2017) (1 Viewer)

[Josh Steinberg]

Currently sitting at 38% on the TomatoMeter. Sigh. Even though the trailers have been pretty bad IMO, I was really hoping that after Wonder Woman this film would continue the positive trend. Looks like WW was just a successful blip on DC's dour radar. I'll still see it, but I'm disappointed that the critical reception wasn't more upbeat. If this doesn't result in a big shakeup at DC, well...

I think the thing was, this basically went into production the moment BvS came out, and WW was already in production at that time as well. I think the DC people realized that BvS didn't get the reaction they've wanted and have tried to make changes behind the scenes, but I think that Suicide Squad and this were too far along to adjust. I would expect that post-Justice League films will probably have less of the Snyder-aesthetic and be more along the lines of the WW solo film.

 

[Brandon Conway]

Currently sitting at 38% on the TomatoMeter. Sigh. Even though the trailers have been pretty bad IMO, I was really hoping that after Wonder Woman this film would continue the positive trend. Looks like WW was just a successful blip on DC's dour radar. I'll still see it, but I'm disappointed that the critical reception wasn't more upbeat. If this doesn't result in a big shakeup at DC, well...

Shakeup already happened in May 2016.

JL is very obviously a producer's film patchworked together from the rewritten-on-set production that started a mere weeks after BvS was released up through the recent pickups. Johns/Berg likely had already written off JL as "old DCEU" months and months ago; they have moved on, and I bet if they had been hired just 8 weeks earlier in 2016 they would have canceled JL outright. Whether it makes $50m box office or $1b box office, this more bluntly connected DCEU died in May 2016 when they were hired. They've changed the upcoming film slate to nothing but solo adventures. JL2 is at least - AT LEAST - a decade away, and only if fans are BEGGING them to make another JL film at that point.

It's gonna be 15-20 solo movies for the next decade, with only tertiary loose connections between movies, and those connection being solely connected by cast, with no connection via plot or story.

That's the reality. Aquaman, Shazam!, Wonder Woman 2, etc. - this is what we're getting next. They'll let the fans head canon any connections beyond cast overlap/cameos, but they will absolutely not be putting any story elements in one film to pay off in another.

 

[dpippel]

Shakeup already happened in May 2016.

Too late to save JL apparently.

 

[Todd H]

After working almost 14 hours today I think I'm going to wait and see it another time instead of seeing it tonight. The reviews don't seem encouraging.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

hey've changed the upcoming film slate to nothing but solo adventures. JL2 is at least - AT LEAST - a decade away, and only if fans are BEGGING them to make another JL film at that point.

It's gonna be 15-20 solo movies for the next decade, with only tertiary loose connections between movies, and those connection being solely connected by cast, with no connection via plot or story.

"Wonder Woman" the film already invalidates much of the character as we see her in "Batman V Superman" - there really isn't a way to reconcile Diana's actions in BvS, along with her speech to Bruce Wayne at the end of that film, with how her character is shown in WW and where that film leaves her at the end. It'll be interesting to see if Justice League resumes the BvS characterization or if it switches to the WW characterization.

From the footage released in trailers, it seems that Snyder and Co are continuing to shoot her in the same fashion they did in BvS, which is a very different look from how Patty Jenkins shot her in WW. At this point, I'd guess we're getting something closer to the WW characterization but in the visual style of Snyder.

 

[Bryan^H]

I enjoyed BvS, and Wonder Woman more than every Marvel film since the Avengers was released combined. That is how much I love the DC characters. Can't wait to see Justice League.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Maybe this is silly on my part, but as I was saying earlier... if this was receiving an IMAX 3D release, as every other DCEU movie has gotten, I would be seeing it tonight.

 

[Sean Bryan]

I'll reserve judgement until after I see it tomorrow, but my expectations are low based on the current buzz. Maybe that's a good thing and I'll enjoy it more than if I was hyped for it.

But there's no way that I can't have significant reservations about this. Yeah, it seems as if this is the result of Warner/DC taking the wrong path to get here and rushing things. Way back when they announced that they were doing this all "backwards" (starting with the team-ups and then doing solo films) I thought that was the wrong way to go about it. It seemed like they wanted to jump to the big team-up events before ever laying the foundations for the individual characters. Starting the DC movie universe where so much has already happened off screen. Batman v Superman before establishing "this" Batman. Suicide Squad before establishing ANY of those characters as villains in earlier hero movies. The Death of Superman in his SECOND on screen appearance. Justice League before getting audiences to care about Flash and Aquaman. And even now it seems they are doing "Flashpoint" before a simple Flash solo movie.

I hope to enjoy this. But I can't help but feel this would have been a movie I'd likely enjoy more if after the very good Wonder Woman they followed with Flash, Batman and Aquaman solo movies and then did Justice League. Not to plant story nuggets that would be used in Justice League but to get us invested in "these versions" of the characters. THEN a big Justice league team-up would feel more organic and earned. But this is basically the end of the Zack Snyder trilogy of movies he started with Man of Steel and Batman v Superman. Warner/DC's decision to change course was simply too late to have much of an impact on Justice League. Hopefully going forward now with Aquaman and whatever they do with the Flash is more in line with what they did with Wonder Woman.

But I still have concerns about Flash if they are doing Flashpoint. To me, it seems like a story like "Flashpoint" would be a cool sequel for the character after starting with a solo move for the first film. The word was that Warner was now holding off on Flashpoint to see how Justice League was received before proceeding with doing that story. So maybe they will be more sensible now and just focus on doing a really good Flash story like they did with Wonder Woman. Do Flashpoint later.

But maybe i'm talking out of my ass and I'll turn out to really enjoy Justice League tomorrow. I hope that is the case.

 

[Sean Bryan]

"Wonder Woman" the film already invalidates much of the character as we see her in "Batman V Superman" - there really isn't a way to reconcile Diana's actions in BvS, along with her speech to Bruce Wayne at the end of that film, with how her character is shown in WW and where that film leaves her at the end. It'll be interesting to see if Justice League resumes the BvS characterization or if it switches to the WW characterization.

From the footage released in trailers, it seems that Snyder and Co are continuing to shoot her in the same fashion they did in BvS, which is a very different look from how Patty Jenkins shot her in WW. At this point, I'd guess we're getting something closer to the WW characterization but in the visual style of Snyder.

Well, at the end of BvS it seemed as if she was now back in the business of being a hero. The coda at the end of Wonder Woman takes place after the events of BvS, so technically that works.

As far as her being committed to helping mankind at the end of Wonder Woman (in The War to end all Wars) and being detached as she was at the beginning of BvS, maybe something occurred in the century between now and then that affected her. Maybe they'll address that in her sequel?

 

[Josh Steinberg]

It seemed like they wanted to jump to the big team-up events before ever laying the foundations for the individual characters.

And commercially, it's not paying off for them. Yes, this is going to open huge compared to the money you or I are likely to make in our lifetimes - I think they're predicting $110 million. But that's what a mid-tier Marvel movie makes on opening weekend. That's Guardians Of The Galaxy or Thor money - nothing to sneeze it, but not what they expected. Warner, by rushing this team-up, I think was hoping for Avengers-style numbers if not better - $200+ million opening, over a billion worldwide in total grosses - or maybe The Force Awakens style, with a $250+ million opening. And frankly, the combination of Batman and Superman should get you there, and Wonder Woman should take it even higher. No matter how this shakes up, internally, I can't imagine that this is considered a kind of loss.

I don't place much stock in rumors, but have you noticed how we haven't heard anything about Affleck's solo Batman since Matt Reeves came on and dumped the script Affleck co-wrote? I laughed at the rumors this summer, but maybe they are looking to swap out Affleck for a younger Batman that doesn't have all of the BvS-suggested history already behind him.

Well, at the end of BvS it seemed as if she was now back in the business of being a hero. The coda at the end of Wonder Woman takes place after the events of BvS, so technically that works.

As far as her being committed to helping mankind at the end of Wonder Woman and being detached as she was at the beginning of BvS, maybe something occurred in the century between now and then that affected her. Maybe they'll address that in her sequel?

I think it technically works if you squint in just the right way, but for me, it's awkward as hell. In Batman V Superman, she is aloof and on the sidelines through most of the film. She has a good reason for this in her dialogue, and tells Bruce Wayne specifically that she walked away from mankind and a century of horrors, after being deeply disillusioned by mankind. That's the World War I era of the solo movie. I think perhaps the WW solo film was intended to end differently, or be structured entirely differently than how it came out, because the ending of WW is not ambiguous in the least - she wins a huge victory, and goes from being naive and distrusting of man to believing in them and placing her faith in them. As WW ends, her narration suggests that she's always been watching and helping humanity, which directly contradicts her speech at the end of BvS.

I think the events in WW were originally intended to end in a way more destructive to Diana's character - that she was either defeated, or won the battle but was disgusted in how it was won. I wonder if WB and DC took the criticism of MoS, BvS and SS as being relentlessly grim to heart, and sought to give it a more uplifting ending. Or if the WW team was just so far removed from the Snyder team (which seems unlikely) that they just did what they wanted to do. I think they simply made a course correction, but for better or worse, it was one that didn't sit well with me.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Warner, by rushing this team-up, I think was hoping for Avengers-style numbers if not better - $200+ million opening, over a billion worldwide in total grosses - or maybe The Force Awakens style, with a $250+ million opening. And frankly, the combination of Batman and Superman should get you there, and Wonder Woman should take it even higher.

Part of the problem is that Superman's presence in the film is technically a spoiler, so you've only got two of your three A-list heroes featured prominently in the advertising.

Watching the DC CW shows, and how good they can be at their best (which, admittedly, they rarely seem to reach these days), they might have been better off doing ~$70 million features with their TV casts a la X-Files: Fight the Future. The box office would have been less, but the production cost would have been substantially less, so they might have actually made more profit.

I've invested four seasons with Grant Gustin's Barry Allen. Why should I care about Ezra Miller's Barry Allen? Gadot's Wonder Woman benefits from not having any other recent live action portrayals to compare against.

And Wonder Woman showed that you don't need the volume of high-dollar action setpieces if people care about character. The CW shows demonstrate that you can do portray these powers effectively on even a TV budget. I'd much rather have less pizazz and more character than lots of pizazz and less character.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I've invested four seasons with Grant Gustin's Barry Allen. Why should I care about Ezra Miller's Barry Allen?

I don't watch the show, but that's been my thought about this movie Flash since he appeared in BvS.

 

[dpippel]

I'll withhold judgement until I see JL, but if the general consensus turns out to be correct I'll just remain deeply, deeply disappointed that DC somehow can't manage to make an exciting, thrilling, ENGAGING film featuring (pardon the expletive) fucking SUPERMAN and fucking BATMAN. Seriously. WTF?

 

[Wayne_j]

I saw this tonight and instead of a dark brooding mess we get a bright happy mess with several jokes a minute.

I was surprised at how few people were at my screening, less than half of what was in the same theater for Thor 2 weeks ago. There were more people at yesterday's Casablanca Fathom Event.

 

[Malcolm R]

I don't watch the show, but that's been my thought about this movie Flash since he appeared in BvS.

Same here. I don't know what the issue was with using Gustin. He is "the Flash" to a sizeable audience.

All I can think of is they didn't want to have to work around his TV shooting schedule.

 

[Brandon Conway]

My review - (Was going to not see it until Monday with my brother, but I had to just get it over with before the weekend hit. What my brother doesn't know won't hurt him

).

A film that adds up to far less than I wanted, but it at least adds up to a good inhabitation of the heroic characters, especially as many may be presented in future films. Yet as its own installment anything it had to say beyond exhausted platitudes has been strained out. If it wasn't for one inspired sequence in the middle of the film and a very small handful of dramatic scenes that remained somewhat intact I would certainly flip my rating down to below my "it's serviceably okay" positive rating threshold. EDIT: Lowering my score a bit. The more I think about it the less I like it. EDIT 2: Back to original score after second viewing. A very confusing film for me - What I like I liked more, but I am so frustrated by what I don't like.

6/10


----


And now some deeper thoughts that are spoiler driven.

Spoiler

My main thought after seeing the film was "I really wish I could have seen the film that Terrio wrote before the BvS reviews caused them to do heavy rewrites on the set during production." There are a few moments that hint at the larger thematic thesis that Terrio and Snyder were going for, but most of it has been stripped away, and some of that must have started immediately.

Going by the few shots of the montage of minorities/homeless/downtrodden being exploited in the wake of Superman's absence, I highly suspect that the ideas of the heroes standing up for those without a voice would have been the dominant dramatic drive of the film, which fits in perfectly with every member of the League and with a few other snippets of dramatic scenes between Bruce and Diana that survive in the film. But when this was excised/paired down I don't know, so it may have never got shot to begin with in principal photography. I can even see there being a little more setup for the philosophy of the Paris terrorists that would have more naturally led to that sequence that was cut.

There's also clearly about another 15-25 minutes in the first act that would have brought in Barry/Arthur/Victor a little more leisurely, and - like what was needed in the middle act of the theatrical BvS - improved the transitions between locations with less jarring effect (although JL never gets as choppy as the theatrical BvS in this regard).

As for the reshoots - eh. The third act is littered with them, and while I don't think it was outright terrible, it did seem unnatural dramatically to have them so chummy all of a sudden.

The one more purely Snyder sequence that survives without more than a 10% tinkering is the Superman vs. the JL fight. The way it pieces together is very clearly Snyder, though even that has a few pickups to wrap it up cleaner than what was likely originally done.

All in all, I'll probably like a cut that lets the first act breathe a little more, but the real movie I want to see will likely never exist.

I'm really glad that I really liked how Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg came across in this film because I am definitely excited to see them (and Superman and Wonder Woman) more. I of course would like to see more Batfleck, but I would also be okay with a recast to just end that whole drama.

Was there some poor CGI here and there? Not egregiously, except some uncanny valley Cavill mouth. Don't really care otherwise. Steppenwolf was a one-note villain? Yeah, but don't really care about that either - this was about the JL; he was good enough for me, and certainly no more problematic than so many other such villains in superhero films that are just there to get the plot in motion and provide a thing for the hero(es) to rise up against.

In the end, I feel most disappointed that the true conclusion to the journey of Superman from novice to ideal version was so sped up in the final moments of that journey. I'm more than happy to move past that journey now that the character is at that level, but I can't help having the reaction that even if they stuck the landing in the end I missed the final arc of the vault.

One final note: the music score was incredibly mediocre, and outright poor in parts. Elfman's style is stuck in the 90s/early 00s and it was so achingly bland. A shame.

DCEU context:

1. Man of Steel - 10/10
2. Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice UE - 9/10
3. Wonder Woman - 9/10
4. Justice League - 6/10
5. Suicide Squad - 4/10

I'd rank all 17 MCU films above Justice League, though Thor: The Dark World is a 6/10 and just barely scrapes by JL.

 

[Brandon Conway]

"Wonder Woman" the film already invalidates much of the character as we see her in "Batman V Superman" - there really isn't a way to reconcile Diana's actions in BvS, along with her speech to Bruce Wayne at the end of that film, with how her character is shown in WW and where that film leaves her at the end. It'll be interesting to see if Justice League resumes the BvS characterization or if it switches to the WW characterization.

They actually contextualize it a little more. Still doesn't fit like a glove, but it fits better than it had with just BvS and WW.

 

[Brandon Conway]

But I still have concerns about Flash if they are doing Flashpoint. To me, it seems like a story like "Flashpoint" would be a cool sequel for the character after starting with a solo move for the first film. The word was that Warner was now holding off on Flashpoint to see how Justice League was received before proceeding with doing that story. So maybe they will be more sensible now and just focus on doing a really good Flash story like they did with Wonder Woman. Do Flashpoint later.

The movie of Flashpoint will not be the comic version of Flashpoint. It'll be Flashpoint "in name only", with the focus primarily on Barry trying to repair what his time travel did to screw with the timeline.

They are going after Zemeckis because they don't want the whole of the comic Flashpoint. They want "Flash to the Future".

 

[DavidJ]

Brandon, I don’t agree with your other ratings, but I do agree with your score for JL and most of your reasoning. There are moments in it that I loved or really enjoyed. I am disappointed that there weren’t more of them. I really loved the first 15-20 minutes and some sections later in the film were pretty good, but the whole was lacking.

I am tired of movies in which nothing feels real. You’ve got a $200 million budget. Build a few more sets for goodness sakes. Not everything needs to be shot on a greenscreen.

And the CGI work on Cavill was VERY distracting to me. I didn’t go in looking for it. As a matter of fact, I had forgotten about it, but when the movie started I wondered what’s wrong with his face. Then I remembered. Oh, yeah.

 

[Robert Crawford]

I just got back from my 3-D showing and I disagree with the Rotten Tomatoes score. I liked the film and thought it was pretty funny in many spots and thoroughly enjoyed the slightly less 2 hours run time. On a grade from 1-10 with 10 being the highest score, I would give this film a solid 7.