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Just got the new Philips 55PL9773 LCOS... (1 Viewer)

Stephen Tu

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Note: I have comfirm that it upscales everything to 720p, but still leaves the question of why I can "see" different resolutions
Just differences in the source material. If you have a 800x600 picture, it doesn't look any sharper with your monitor set on 1024x768 than it does set on 800x600.
 

DuWayne

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Stephen Tu,

Ok, Another question....

Since 720p is a higher Res. than 540p, is a 1080i feed "upscaled to 720p or downscaled ?

Not trying to be an Ass, just trying to learn.
 

Stephen Tu

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Well, it's hard to say whether it should be called "upscaling" or "downscaling". Just call it "side-conversion" to be safe :).

You have 1920x540 fields, each is converted to a 1280x720 frame. You are scaling down horizontally, interpolating up vertically. You are always losing horizontal resolution vs. the original 1920x1080 frames; how much you are losing vertically depends on the motion in the scene.

But vs. CRT it's really not bad since current CRT sets have limited resolution anyway; they don't fully resolve the theoretical limits of 1080i. The LCOS is likely sharper than a typical CRT especially if they aren't perfectly focused & converged. Also the broadcasts themselves aren't that high-res to begin with, due to limitations in cameras & other processing in the chain.
 

DaViD Boulet

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Great discussion guys!

I've heard so much about this new single-chip LCOS TV and am excited to hear it looks so good!!!

Also curious about any "rainbow" artifacts if any folks see them.

All things being equal (not counting rainbows), single chip PJs can look better than 3-chip due to better black-level and perfect 3-color alignment. 3-chip machines can be brighter, but black-level is compromised.
 

JayQuinty

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DuWayne,

I was passing by Good Guys today, and decided to stop in to take a closer look at the 55" Phillips LCOS TV. I checked to see if I could see any rainbow effects, but I did not see any. Of course, I admit I haven't looked at any DLP's yet, so I have yet to even know what rainbow effects looks like. Whatever they are, I couldn't see any raibows on the screen, even from up close.

I also asked the salesman to play a DVD, so I could compare the picture to the HD loop that they run continuously. He obliged and I was surpised to see that the picutre was very grainy, or pixelly. He said the DVD was not hooked up through the component video-in, so probably coming in thru s-video. Needless to say, had I bought this TV I would not be happy with the picture that I was seeing, if this were how all DVD's played. I'm assuming that you don't experience this grainy-ness, as you have not made mention of this condition. How do you rate your DVD picture and/or viewing satisfaction?

Thanks,
Jay
 

DuWayne

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I also asked the salesman to play a DVD, so I could compare the picture to the HD loop that they run continuously. He obliged and I was surpised to see that the picutre was very grainy, or pixelly. He said the DVD was not hooked up through the component video-in, so probably coming in thru s-video. Needless to say, had I bought this TV I would not be happy with the picture that I was seeing, if this were how all DVD's played. I'm assuming that you don't experience this grainy-ness, as you have not made mention of this condition. How do you rate your DVD picture and/or viewing satisfaction?
This is going to be a very complicated Discussion, so I call on Stephen Tu to comment also, but my finding are the following:

I was just discusing this issue with the Philips tech that came by my house (VERY KNOWLEDGABLE) and he agreed with my conclusions. Lets start with my setup....

I'm using AV6(DVI) for my DVD source, so I'm sending a pure digital single through-and-through. With the combination of both the 55PL9773/S and/or the DVI source, you WILL EXPOSE bad DVD Tranfers. I have a whole slue of DVDs at home and was trying a bunch of different ones trying to prove this out, and expose some "so-call" Superbit tranfers. I'll give you an example:

I put in a "Superbit" tranfer of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and was appauled by the grain and artifacts present from start to finish. Then I put in The Two Towers, and I also notice a grainy/faded picture - but nowhere near what I saw with CTHD. I then watched the 5th Element and Training Day. With these two, I got a better feel of what was going on, since these tranfers were pretty good. A hell of a lot better than the previous two. I then put in Ice Age and Monster's Inc. and all fears were put to rest. These DVDs looked perfect (as they should, being all digital). The textures were so vivid, you almost want to walk up and touch them.

I just recieved my DVE 2003, so you know what I will be doing tonight.

As far as what was wrong with my set (Purple Hazein one spot), the tech believes it has something to do with my "Light Engine" or a part within. Being that these sets are so new and are "sealed sets" it wouldn't be worth getting Lighting Engine parts, so he was going to order a complete Lighting Engine...Now the choice I have to make is; Do I want him to repair it? or Do I get a brand new set from Good Guys? ...or Both.
 

ManW_TheUncool

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RE: the grain (and faded look) issue, well, that's how many movies are supposed to be(!). Don't you ever go to the theater? :D It's not the transfer per se that's bad, but that the original film was shot (and often intended to be) that way in many cases. Try Saving Private Ryan or Minority Report or Blackhawk Down for clear examples of this.

Also, a straight-from-digital transfer like Ice Age and Monsters, Inc should have no film grain at all (unless they were intentionally artificially added of course) since the source was not film.

I don't own the Superbit version of CTHD, but I'd agree that the non-Superbit version could certainly be better.

Jay,

You should not base the DVD PQ on s-video connection.

_Man_
 

John_F

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A couple of questions.

When would you see rainbows, in a 1 chip design, 3 chip design, or both?


What was the plasma model and did you configure it also?

Thanks,
John Flegert
 

DaViD Boulet

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CTHD indeed has loads of film-grain. It's made to look that way...not a "problem" with the DVD. The super-bit has more horizontal resolution than the regular so you see even more of the fine film-grain structure whereas the regular DVD "smooths out" the picture from the way it really looks.

_Man_ is right...the next few times you're at the theater really check out the picture on that big screen. Some movies (pirates of the caribbean) are creamy-smooth...hardly any film grain. then others (A.I. and Black Hawk Down are 2 good examples) are *totally* covered in film-grain from start to finish. Aliens is another good example. These films were shot that way on purpose by their creator for artistic reasons. Once you think of it that way...it's sort of like letterboxing...it doesn't bother you anymore if you understand "why" it's like that.

Basically, your TV has so much resolution and is so accurate that using the DVI input you're *really* seeing what these DVDs *and* the movies that they record really look like. The examples you cite are actually very fine DVD transfer and very well-shot movies (naturally there are bad DVD transfers out there that totally such and impart their own electronic noise into the film-image) so hopefully you can get things to where you're able to enjoy these films as well as Ice Age.

dave :)
 

DuWayne

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What was the plasma model and did you configure it also?
There was a Philips, a Fijitsu(sp) and I think another brand. No, I didn't configure them, but I don't think it would have made a difference. I say this because I believe it was the Pixle Plus Engine that was doing this, and unless those Plasmas had a simular Technology, you're not going to get that "Live" feel.

Now, as far as the DVD issue...

Everyone is right, although there are plenty of "Bad Tranfers" out there, some movies are going to look grainy/faded on purpose. The point I was trying to make was, with the 55PL9773/S and/or the DVI connection that you WILL see a DVD for what it really is. More importantly, that there wasn't any noise being added by the set. As far as theaters go...I don't go to them. I wait for it to come on DVD, as my home sysetm sounds/look better than a theater. Hell, its cheaper too. Plus I get to keep the movie. :D
 

DuWayne

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Now I have a question for all you DVE experts...

I ran the tests yesterday and had a question or two. I ran the DVD using AV6(DVI) first, and I notice that the only thing I had to change was the Sharpness...which I set to "0". When running the Contrast test, it didn't matter if I turn it all the way up or all the way down, the lines on the whitest square stayed firm and straight with the square below it. The same was true when I ran it at 480i Component(AV1). I take it that this is a "good" thing...please enlighten me.

Now lets move to the Brightness test...This is where I'm confused.

You have a stack of squares in the middle from Black to White and 3 vertical bars on each side. From my under standing, I'm suppose to turn the brightnes up til I can see all 3 bars, then turn it down til the outside bar blends in with the background. Here is where my problem starts...

With DVI I only see 2 bars...So do I assume its set already correctly?
With Componet(AV1) I see 3 bars...Then I turn my brightness down?

Is this right?
 

John_F

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Reading the Philips user's manual quickly, it looks like "Pixel Plus" is upconversion of ED signals to HD, which all HD plasma (and just about any HD display) do.
 

DuWayne

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I would think just the opposite, configuration makes all the difference when comparing two displays.
Thats understood, my point was that it was a night and day difference and if indeed the Pixel Plus engine was causing it to look better the plasma sets didn't have this technology (apparent) thus wasn't going to look "Life-Like" no matter what you did to it.

Mind you, this isn't there HD engine. As 480i (AV1 & AV2) only routes through Pixel Plus. I have also looked at the same HD source(Componet 480p) on both the LCOS set and the Plasma, and was hard press to any major differences in quality. I'll be more than happy to post pictures if allowed.
 

JayQuinty

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You should not base the DVD PQ on s-video connection.
OK, so now that begs further discussion. If, in fact, the poor PQ is not related to the s-video connection, then one can only assume that the movie will look this way when hooked up to the componenet video and/or DVI port as well. If so, then I would not be happy with this TV.

There is one thing I left out when I posted earlier, and that is I had the salesman take the same DVD and put it into another DVD player hooked up to a Sony 57" WV700, which is another TV I'm considering purchasing, and the picture looked "normal". There wasn't any grainy-ness/pixellation on the exact same section of the DVD. So my conclusion is that if this is a product of the TV, and not the connection or DVD player, then I would pass on buying it.

Am I on track here?


Thanks,

Jay
 

Stephen Tu

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When would you see rainbows, in a 1 chip design, 3 chip design, or both?
-----------------------------------------
I don't believe you will see a rainbow with LCOS. At least I haven't seen it on mine. I have seen it with DLPs
That's something he has to see for himself; you can't know based on your own experience. There are plenty of people, including me, who have seen rainbows on the Philips LCOS. It varies from person to person. (I haven't seen rainbows on the DLPs)

It's the 1-chip designs that are susceptible to this artifact, for some people.

As for the grain issue, the PixelPlus stuff appears to be some edge enhancement feature; it could well be working as a grain enhancement misfeature on a grainy/noisy source. Probably supposed to turn it off in that case.
 

DuWayne

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As for the grain issue, the PixelPlus stuff appears to be some edge enhancement feature; it could well be working as a grain enhancement misfeature on a grainy/noisy source. Probably supposed to turn it off in that case. [/QUOTE}

See below...Also just add "WorldWideWeb." to the link above to view site. On the site it will show you Pics.

I am unable to get to the link you posted.
LAS VEGAS, January 8, 2003 - Demonstrating its leadership in television innovations, Philips Electronics announced that it would include its Pixel Plus technology as a standard feature in select FlatTV systems, today at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES). Pixel Plus technology is a next-generation image-enhancer that creates High Definition-like picture characteristics from any analog source by increasing the number of pixels, while being HDTV compatible when this programming becomes more widely available.* As the first company to offer this kind of television innovation, Philips created Pixel Plus to enable consumers to view images with HD quality now and still be ready for HDTV programming later.
Pixel Plus was originally integrated into Philips direct view widescreen monitors (30PW9818 and 34PW9818) in 2002.* Today's announcement includes Pixel Plus technology in Philips 50-inch, 42-inch and 32-inch FlatTV when used with the new Pixel Plus equipped e-box. Philips full FlatTV line up includes products that range from 13-LCD televisions to 50-inch plasma televisions.
"Pixel Plus technology allows consumers to experience the phenomenon of HDTV television signal today," said Des Power, general manager, television, Philips Consumer Electronics, North America. "The technology allows us to offer consumers the latest viewing experience in an affordable solution.* By including Pixel Plus technology in our new line of FlatTV systems, we enable consumers to enjoy the latest in design with one of the best images available.* You will be amazed once you watch programming with Pixel Plus technology. It will change the way you see television forever."
Philips' excellence in picture quality was rewarded by the European Imaging and Sound Association (EISA) by winning the prestigious "European TV of the year award 2002-2003" for its TVs with Pixel Plus technology.



An Enhanced Viewing Experience: Philips Pixel Plus Technology
Pixel Plus technology is completely transforming the way consumers view television.* Imagine looking out a window on a nice autumn afternoon, watching the leaves fall gently to the ground, being able to see each leaf drift quietly across the sky.* Then watching a similar scene on a high definition digital widescreen TV and experiencing the same texture of the leaves that you saw through the window.* Pixel Plus technology provides this incredibly real experience, without the necessity of a digital signal - any analog signal can be enhanced to show the characteristics of a HD-like picture when using Pixel Plus technology.
Drawing on Philips' extensive heritage in digital signal processing, Pixel Plus technology delivers unparalleled picture quality for both moving and still images, irrespective of the source type the set is asked to display.* This is achieved by a doubling of both horizontal and vertical line resolution - from 1024 to 2048 pixels across and from 525 to 1050 lines horizontal- thereby resulting in a highly visible resolution improvement of on-screen images, producing amazingly sharp pictures with natural detail.*
Pixel Plus technology examines and measures all aspects of the incoming signal. A patented chipset that is capable of over 215 million bits of processing per frame of video, interpolates the additional pixels and compensates for the "judder" so often seen in moving pictures. The result is a picture with startling clarity, much finer detail, and dramatically improved depth and realism, all without any visible line structure.* Philips Pixel Plus technology is a significant step forward in television picture quality.* For a 525-line NTSC transmission, Pixel Plus technology doubles vertical and horizontal resolution, delivering an unprecedented clear and steady picture of 2048 pixels by 1050 lines.* This performance nearly matches an HDTV picture (1080i lines).*
Consumers will be amazed when viewing programs with the Pixel Plus feature, as images are sharper, clearer and more enjoyable to watch.* In addition to Pixel Plus technology, the Philips Pixel Plus FlatTV and HDTV monitors integrate multiple video features to ensure the best picture possible, including Progressive Scan, Digital Natural Motion and Digital Crystal Clear technologies.


Digital Natural Motion - Offers pixel level 3:2 pull down motion compensation, which produces razor-sharp reproduction of movement.* The unique and highly advanced processor calculates motion trajectories of moving picture elements.* It corrects jerky movement in both studio programs and movies.


Digital Crystal Clear - Utilizes Dynamic Contrast, SVM, digital comb filter, 9-bit processing, luminance enhancements and color enhancements to create a crisp and natural picture from any type or quality of source.



The combination of Pixel Plus and Digital Natural Motion technologies gives unparalleled picture performance, especially when rapid movement is being displayed on the television.* The digital widescreen TVs also include Philips' Active ControlÔ feature, which continuously analyzes the source material, adjusting it to provide the best image.* Philips' cutting-edge picture enhancement features provide viewers outstanding displays of content from any source.



FlatTV Systems: Unmatched Style and Images
Philips award winning FlatTV line-up offers consumers innovative and stylish options for home theater viewing.* Featuring thin profiles and multiple display options, the FlatTV monitors will add to the décor of any room and fit in any location. For those utilizing plasma technology, the FlatTV systems produce images that rival works of art. Only Philips FlatTV systems offer consumer full television functionally and control as well as high quality sound, offered into each set. With a Philips FlatTV monitor, the consumers viewing experience will be changed for life.
 

DuWayne

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OK, so now that begs further discussion. If, in fact, the poor PQ is not related to the s-video connection, then one can only assume that the movie will look this way when hooked up to the componenet video and/or DVI port as well. If so, then I would not be happy with this TV.

There is one thing I left out when I posted earlier, and that is I had the salesman take the same DVD and put it into another DVD player hooked up to a Sony 57" WV700, which is another TV I'm considering purchasing, and the picture looked "normal". There wasn't any grainy-ness/pixellation on the exact same section of the DVD. So my conclusion is that if this is a product of the TV, and not the connection or DVD player, then I would pass on buying it.

I don't know what to say here...the easiest way to tell is to run an all digital movie and qualify that way (i.e. a Pixar DVD). If you still see grain, then something is wrong. Also, tell me what DVD it was and if I have it. I will play it and take Pics. Also did you see it in one spot or through out the DVD?
 

Stephen Tu

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Easiest for me was on the PixelPlus demo; the white dividing line would break up. I also saw it on moving white objects in a ocean life documentary they were playing.

Salesman also claimed to see rainbows. But many people never see them. Anyway, before buying it's a good idea to look at the set along with other household members to see if any of you are among the affected population.
 

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