Just dont like the sound.

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Geoff L, Jun 10, 2001.

  1. Geoff L

    Geoff L Screenwriter

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    Ive always had ported subs till the last year or so. Ported meaning, mass produced lower end stuff. JBL,AR,Yammaha, and the likes. Reason being, a lack of knowledge along with a limited budget. Always into sound and in the last 3-4 years sucked in fully to the world of HT.
    Started building subs as a way to test,learn, and experiment with things I was reading. I love powerfull clean bass. Ive come to the easy conclusion that I still know little in the world of low frequency production.
    I know from reading the bevy of post here, that well designed ported subs can and do sound as good as its sealed friends.
    I have built in the past, two ported sono subs and was for the most part happy. They where sold to a friend due to the better halfs complaints. I went from there to the DIY sealed subs. For nearly six months we have been listening to different sealed stuff I have built. I really like the sound of the latest sealed subs.
    Well I went to visit my old sono friends tonight. Watched UB-571 and did some music listening where they reside now. I must say I dont miss them a bit. Our equipment is similar and so is room size. I know its not apples to apples, but for HT the sonos rule. But when it comes to music, I favor the "sealed subs" big time. So many things play into the creation of one of these monster sonos, driver, tuneing, cabnit vol,port mach, and the like.
    Id like to try again with a top of the line driver. But first,I like to know this.
    Im wondering if you DYI sono guys really like your subs for music?
    Are there any proven designs with sonos that may seem to be better than others for music? What driver, what tuning,port size, what cab vol?
    I guess i want the best of both worlds. Good extension, limited hang,nice spl with relistic power-600 watts or less, and small foot-print 18"
    The better half has given me the
    ok for a new sono and we cant pass that up now can we. [​IMG]
     
  2. Greg Monfort

    Greg Monfort Supporting Actor

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    Details/specs of your previous sonosubs?
    GM
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    Loud is beautiful, if it's clean
     
  3. Julian Data

    Julian Data Second Unit

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    What tune was the bass reflex sub? As it matters.
    Whoops! Greg must've posted while I was doing mine! [​IMG]
    LOL!
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  4. Geoff L

    Geoff L Screenwriter

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    There is no question the older sonos were not of the quality that many build here. Speaking of the Tempest, Mass, or even the Shiva.
    They where 12" MA-Audio car subs. Hell the retail on these subs was something like 60.00. Volume around 6 cubic ft, and tuned around 20hz. I built them about 2 years ago. I cant remember exactly, as the paper work I keep on everything I build is with them.
    More than likely, my driver had as much to do with my not likeing them as the design and tuneing. Though not bad sounding, they just sounded slow. No problem for boom factor but seem to hang with music. Just lagging behind in fast changing bass notes. I have not had the chance to hear a well built good quailty sono sub. [​IMG]
    Mine where well built but lacking a good quailty driver.
    Being that im looking to start from scratch, is there any recomendations as to what driver maybe a better choice. All the drivers mentioned above are good performers but dose one look better for what im looking for. My only concern is trying to stay under a 6ft 18" tube, and might be better sutitued for music. The rest is open.
     
  5. Greg Monfort

    Greg Monfort Supporting Actor

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    Until I have an idea as to why you think the others were 'slow' I can't be of any help, as I can make a 'fast' sub out of far cheaper drivers than you say this one is.
    GM
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    Loud is beautiful, if it's clean
     
  6. Geoff L

    Geoff L Screenwriter

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    Greg,
    It would seem Im not too good with trying to explain what I was hearing.
    With fast changing "string bass" notes they would tend to muddy together. Sounded as if the sub was always trying to keep up. The sealed subs allow me to clearly hear these notes as the change. This is most noted on string bass with notes changing rapidly.
    I hope this gives you a better idea of what Im trying to decribe.
    I would say my inexperience at designing ported subs had a lot to do with it. The subs cost around thirty dollars apiece and more than likly where not a good choice for the size and tuneing of the tube. I cant give specifics as I dont have that info avaiable at this time. Im not really interested in fixing or diagnosing these as I dont own them any more.
     
  7. Jack Gilvey

    Jack Gilvey Producer

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    As has been stated, there's really no telling what you were actually listening to, as far as alignment is concerned. I will say that different vented alignments can sound comletely different from each other, and that a few bad examples (especially commercial ones) shouldn't be seen as impugning an entire loading scheme.
    As far as the "best" vented alignment for "tightness", many consider an EBS (Extended Bass Shelf) to be it. It has very low group delay in the passband, and good transient response. Maybe not quite as good as a sealed in these areas (although the difference may be inaudible), but it will have an enormous advantage in deep bass capability (which will certainly be audible). It requires space, though. For example, an EBS for a Tempest would consist of a 12cu.ft box tuned to 16Hz or so.
     
  8. Brian Fellmeth

    Brian Fellmeth Supporting Actor

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    I'm also working on a sono sub for music only. I'm convinced that sealed is the way to go, mostly because its forgiving. The big downside of course is that slow rolloff at the low end. I'm will be using a DIY active crossover with a low boost to recover SPL in the rolloff zone (22-35 Hz).
     
  9. Peter Jessee

    Peter Jessee Stunt Coordinator

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    The Dayton DVC drivers that Parts Express sells are good candidates for smallish EBS designs. They are very similar to the Shiva and Tempest drivers, but trade a little bass extension for smaller enclosure requirements. Playing around with WINISD, the 15" DVC in a 180 liter enclosure can be tuned to 18 hz or so with a 31" long 6" vent tube.
    The graph shows it to be 6 dB down at 20 Hz anechoic, although room gain should actually cause it to be above the 80 Hz level. With 200 watts, output is around 117 dB anechoic, and it's rated for 650 watts if you can stand it.
    Check out the Technical Feedback forum at Parts Express for more advice on this and the 12" DVC drivers.
    Peter
     
  10. Andrew Pratt

    Andrew Pratt Producer

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    Peter I couldn't wait for the tempest to be released so I picked up the 15" PE driver for my sonosub and its a great driver. There's an SPL plot on my website of its performance if you guys want to see some real world numbers
    ------------------
    http://www.attcanada.ca/~itisi
     
  11. Mark Seaton

    Mark Seaton Supporting Actor

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    Actually, if you want a good, reasonable driver to play with EBS type alignments, check out the Stryke SAE-1204. It has a smaller Vas than the Shiva and PE drivers, and while a little bit less efficient, it allows for nice, smooth roll-off alignments in manageable enclosure volumes. For those playing around with the sofware sims, and looking to simulate the percieved quality of a sealed design, stay away from very sharp knee's at the bottom of the response curve. You want to keep a smooth transition. If you see a sharp corner at the bottom of the response curve, making the box smaller will smooth off the roll off with the compromise of a little less output at tuning.
    Mark Seaton
     
  12. Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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    Wayne
    I’ve always used sealed subs because I’ve always preferred tight sound and lower extension to maximum SPL level (okay, I’m speaking in sealed vs. ported generalities here, so don’t flame me!).
    I have two sealed DIY Shivas that are similar in parameters to the Adire Rava. With equalization they easily hit 20Hz, and I’ve measured something like 105-109dB during one of the U-571 explosions. Pretty amazing for two 12s in a 6200 cubic ft. listening space!
    Regards,
    Wayne A. Pflughaupt
     
  13. Jack Gilvey

    Jack Gilvey Producer

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    How much eq are you using with your Shivas, Wayne, and what amp? Sounds good!
     
  14. Geoff L

    Geoff L Screenwriter

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    Yes Wayne those numbers are quite impressive!
    My room would be tiny compared to that monster. "1800 cubic ft" closed room nice gain.
    Also runing dual sealed. Low Q drivers, 12inch, 1.35 cubic ft per encloser, 1-lb fill, 300 watts per driver at 4 ohms. But not sure of the wattage because the amps are seeing 2.8 and seem to be handeling it ok. Around 5 to 6db boost 20hz, and though no record setting spl levels, pleased with hitting close to 110db considering their size.
    Tiny little boxs you have there Geoff, would be the words my friends use.
    But wow, around 109db in a 6200 cubic ft room, yes pretty amazing to say the least.
     

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