Just called Onkyo... does this sound right?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Jeff_Brom, Dec 7, 2001.

  1. Jeff_Brom

    Jeff_Brom Extra

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I called Onkyo about the crossover specs on my 797...

    they said for front speakers set to 'large' you get 80Hz and above... for 'small' you get 120Hz and above... this assumes you have sub set to 'yes'... for sub 'no' the front's get the full spectrum just like they do in 'direct' mode... they also said that the sub gets 80Hz and below no matter what...

    if that's true, why would you ever use 'small'? it gives you a 40Hz 'hole'... and why does everyone say to set bookshelf speakers to 'small'? i thought 'large' meant full spectrum, but at 80Hz and above, most bookshelfs and all floor units should be able to handle this...

    can anyone else verify these specs?

    thanks,

    Jeff
     
  2. Jeff_Brom

    Jeff_Brom Extra

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    ok, you guys weren't answering quickly enough [​IMG] so i had to run some tests...
    i was using pure single frequency test tones at -3db from full amplitude, input to the receiver at 96kHz through a coax...
    from 120Hz up, i see a 0.5db difference between the "direct" and stereo modes (in stereo, i was only using the two fronts, no sub, but sub set to "yes")...
    at 100Hz the stereo modes were 1.5db less than direct... small vs. large didn't make ANY difference
    at 80Hz the stereo modes were 3.0db less than direct... small vs. large didn't make ANY difference
    at 60Hz the stereo modes were 6.5db less than direct... small vs. large didn't make ANY difference
    with all tones, there was no difference between direct and stereo IF sub was set to "no"
    so what does this tell me? that for any kind of configuration with a sub, you're looking at a 120Hz crossover for the mains... pretty lame!!! it appears to be dropping off at 6db/octave, which wouldn't be too bad if it started at 80Hz, but starting at 120 its pretty cut down...
    so i think i'll keep it set up as sub "no" with the sub connected to the main r/l pre outs... this gives me the most flexibility and the least screwing with my signal...
    wish i would have know this while demoing speakers... i was listening to speakers on "large" assuming this will full range... whoops!
     
  3. StephenL

    StephenL Second Unit

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2000
    Messages:
    341
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I suspect that the crossover is the same as in other Onkyo receivers. Sound & Vision tested the TX-DS696 in the July/August issue. They reported subwoofer output frequency response of 24 dB/octave rolloff above -3 dB point of 80 Hz and high-pass filter frequency response of 12 dB/octive rolloff below -3 dB point of 80 Hz. I believe that this is the crossover specification required for THX certification.
     
  4. Jeff Weight

    Jeff Weight Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2001
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
     
  5. Jeremy Anderson

    Jeremy Anderson Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 1999
    Messages:
    1,049
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Jeff, crossovers are not brickwalls, and the dB levels you're reporting are fairly consistent with an 80Hz THX spec'd crossover. An 80Hz crossover doesn't just stop suddenly at 80hz and then suddenly change to the sub. There's a very smooth transition, in which both your sub and your speakers are reproducing those sounds simultaneously (which is why matching the phase of your subwoofer to your mains with a calibration disc is so important). This is to maintain the directionality of upper and mid-bass. As StephenL said, a THX crossover is 24dB/octave low-pass and 12dB/octave high-pass with the reinforcement point at 80Hz.

     
  6. Jeff_Brom

    Jeff_Brom Extra

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    thanks for the info! i've replaced the super zero's already (that was a good investment, they lasted about 10 days!) i've got Paradigm monitor 11's and a paradigm cc370 center... so should i set them for small or large?

    could you explain just a little more what the difference is between small and large in terms of the signal going to the front mains? i used test tones of 160, 140, 120, 100, 80, and 60 (with the subwoofer unplugged) and i never saw a difference in SPL between small and large... but i did see a difference between either one of those modes and "direct" or when selecting no subwoofer in the menu in which case you can't even pick small/large... is there a difference in the frequencies that go to small vs. large speakers? also, is there a difference in what goes to the sub w/large vs. small selected?

    thank you!
     
  7. Jeff_Brom

    Jeff_Brom Extra

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    ok... i just did some testing... now that i better understand the crossover i set up the sub volume such that 80Hz is the same db in stereo as it is in direct (in other words the sub is kicking in the same amount that's getting pulled out of the mains)... this gives a nice musical level where the crossover seems totally seemless... i haven't tried movies yet... right now the monitor 11s are set to "small"... still wondering what exactly is the difference between small and large...

    thanks!
     
  8. Jeremy Anderson

    Jeremy Anderson Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 1999
    Messages:
    1,049
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
     
  9. Jeff_Brom

    Jeff_Brom Extra

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Jeremy,

    i appreciate all the time you've spent on this.. i'm not ignoring what you're saying at all... i just have to understand why i'm doing something or it will drive me nuts... i'm the last type of person that can deal with doing something "just because someone said so"... so if i'm asking all kinds of questions its just because i want to understand what's going on behind the scenes... i'm frustrated the when i spend $1000 on a receiver it doesn't come with detailed specs on exactly what its doing (especially when you're given a choice to change so many things, you need the background info to know *what* to chose)...

    anyway, when i originally started with all of this i had the speakers all set to small, i went into the onkyo cal tones and set all speakers and the sub to be 75db... then in the Avia 6 channel low freq pan i noticed the drop on the LFE... this was the beginning of all of my trouble... since i had selected small for all the speakers, i thought ALL bass for ALL channels was going soley to the sub... so it didn't make any sense that the LFE would be lower than the others... what really confused me, was that when i selected "no sub" and ran the sub inputs from the r/l main preouts, Avia was the same on all channels, like the problem was fixed... of course, since then i've gotten new front speakers, found out about the way the crossover works a little more, learned about this problem with the onkyo sub test tone, etc...

    also, when comparing frequencies above 120Hz, there is only a 0.5db difference between stereo and direct... then below 120Hz the spread gets wider... so i still think that's a valid way to see what frequencies are attenuated in what mode... sure, certain frequencies will have greater response in the room than others, but the room isn't changing between frequency X in stereo and frequency X in direct, so i think its valid to compare them... you'll have to forgive me... i'm an analytical nerd who has to have hard data or i can't sleep at night... sorry about the trouble... i just want to get the most out of my investment... i won't ask any more on this topic...
     
  10. Jeremy Anderson

    Jeremy Anderson Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 1999
    Messages:
    1,049
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think your original problem was just that the Onkyo's subwoofer tone is 10db too low and you weren't getting the proper amount of bass for any channel, including LFE. With all speakers set to small, bass for all channels IS redirected to the subwoofer using the crossover. However, during that 6-channel low frequency pan, your speakers are helping to reproduce the bass during the speaker tones, but not during the LFE tone.

    I'll explain further: Let's say the tone that is panning is 20-120Hz noise (the frequency range of the LFE channel). When that tone is playing in one of the speakers, the speaker itself is reproducing most of the sound from 80-120Hz (because of the crossover)... so even if the subwoofer is 10db too low, these channels may appear to be at the correct level. (You can verify this yourself -- run the 6-channel pan, put your hand on one of your speakers and you should feel that it is working in conjunction with the subwoofer.) However, when the pan reaches the LFE channel, the subwoofer is having to reproduce it on its own. So if the sub is 10db too low, the LFE tone will play 10db lower than the other channels.

    I apologize if I'm getting a bit frustrated, but it just seems like we're talking in circles and you aren't following any suggestions to find out if it fixes your problem. HUMOR ME -- setup and calibrate your system the way I outlined above, and see if I'm right. It won't take much time, and I think you'll be happy with the results. But if you don't at least TRY it, you'll never know.
     
  11. Jeff_Brom

    Jeff_Brom Extra

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    ok, i set it up using 75db for the 6 speakers and 85db for the sub... i know you said 80 and 90, but that was pretty loud... all speakers set to small... in the avia 6 ch low pan, i bump the master volume until the main channels are reading 80db... then the LFE/SW channel reads 74db... so i'm still getting the drop... its the same in either straight dolby digital or in THX Surround... i put my hand on the mains and center and i didn't feel anything coming out of them during their part of the pan... it would _seem_ that all sound for all channels is coming from the sub can't say for sure... is it ok to run the Onkyo without any speakers connected? i could do that, but still leave the sub hooked up, and see if there's any difference there...

    another way to look at it: i've calibrated two ways now using the onkyo tones: once with all speakers and sub at 75, once with all speakers at 75 and sub at 85... both times the avia results were the same... with the second calibration i was probably seeing higher db's at less master volume, but the drop on the LFE remains... this somewhat convinces me that this issues is totally independant of the sub level in the setup (which also reinforces the fact that the sound is only coming from the sub, otherwise you'd see a difference as the sub gets farther away from the mains in level)

    things still sound good, i almost wish i would have never used this avia test because now i feel like something's wrong no matter what it sounds like...

    so, i think i ran your test correctly... still not sure what's wrong... anybody else specifically have a 797 and Avia?

    thanks again.
     
  12. Jeremy Anderson

    Jeremy Anderson Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 1999
    Messages:
    1,049
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    During the 6-channel pan, turn off your subwoofer (or unplug the power to it) and see if you hear anything from your speakers. This will tell you for sure if your speakers are doing anything during that pan (although they may not -- I'm not sure if the 6-channel pan uses any of the frequency range above the crossover point, although on my system you can feel my Polks working during that pan).

    Okay, I'm reading the manual for the 797 right now to see if I can find anything that might be causing this. I didn't find much (other than realizing I should upgrade to that receiver soon).

    1) In the speaker setup menu, do you have BASS PEAK LEVEL LIMITER (advanced menu 1-4) turned on? If so, this could be the problem, since it is attenuating peak subwoofer output.

    2) Make sure LATE NIGHT mode is turned off (advanced menu 3-3d).

    Have you tried using Avia's subwoofer setup tones instead of your receiver's? It may just be that the tone on the receiver is not worth shit. Use the sub test tone on Avia for the left main (making sure you have all speakers set to small or it won't work right). It will play two alternating tones -- one in the left main (by playing noise above the crossover point) and then one in the sub (by playing noise below the crossover point). You should adjust your sub's level so that the two tones are roughly the same on your meter. There's no need to make this adjustment for each channel -- just the left main (since it will be the same across the board); the others are there for verification purposes and for systems with multiple subwoofers. After you do this, try the 6-channel pan and see what happens.

    I certainly hope, after all this shit, that we figure it out eventually! I'd give you chapter numbers for this stuff, but my brother took my Avia disc and SPL meter to New Jersey with him to calibrate his system and I won't get it back until next week.
     
  13. Jeremy Anderson

    Jeremy Anderson Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 1999
    Messages:
    1,049
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You're still using the NHT SubOne subwoofer, correct? Are you running it in FLAT RESPONSE mode or VIDEO CONTOUR mode? Video Contour performs a bass boost for certain frequencies. Make sure you set it to Flat Response before you calibrate (and leave it there).

    If not the NHT sub, what are you using?
     
  14. Jeff_Brom

    Jeff_Brom Extra

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    ok, i turned the sub's power off (but still left the receiver set up for a sub (sub is still the NHT SubOne in FLAT mode))...

    Latenight is off, bass limit is off... DD and DTS LFE Level are 0 (max that they can be set to)

    i can hear a small amount of sound from the other speakers during the 6 ch pan... but its pretty low (db-wise)... i have to turn the receiver up a bit to hear it... here's the wierd part: when it gets to the LFE/SW part of the pan, the low freq tone is coming out of the left front main! don't know what that's about... at this point i'm really starting to wonder about either the Avia ENcoding or the Onkyo DEcoding...

    NO idea where i'm at now... damn nice of you, though, to dig through the manuals trying to track this down... wish i could get someone from Onkyo on the phone that was 1/10th as helpfull...
     
  15. Jeremy Anderson

    Jeremy Anderson Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 1999
    Messages:
    1,049
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Did you try using Avia to set the subwoofer level instead of the internal sub tone?
     
  16. Jeff_Brom

    Jeff_Brom Extra

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2001
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    sorry, forgot to mention that... i didn't use avia yet... i'll have to wait till tomorrow during the day so my neighbors don't kick my door down... i'll keep you posted...
     
  17. Ali Yegulalp

    Ali Yegulalp Auditioning

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2000
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'm very glad to see someone else bringing up this issue. I have the Integra DTR-7 and I've noticed the same funny behavior with the bass management. When you set sub=yes, the fronts are low-passed no matter whether you set front=LARGE or front=SMALL. This is in all modes other than direct, which of course does no processing at all.
    It gets a bit more complicated in my case because my mains are Deftech BP2002TL towers with powered subs, and I have no seperate subwoofer. The speakers each have 5 inputs! There are separate speaker level inputs for the tweeter, mid, and sub. There's also two line-level inputs for driving the sub: one is for a full-range line level signal, and the other is a line-level LFE input. The speaker has its own crossover network for blending the powered sub with the passive mid and high drivers.
    Jeremy, I'm curious as to how you'd recommend connecting the speakers I have with the Integra. I use the system for both music (in Direct mode) and home theater. I don't want the receiver imposing a cross-over on top of what's in the speaker already. At the same time, I'd like to be able to use the line-level connectors to drive the sub. At the moment, I have the receiver set to sub=NO, fronts=LARGE, and the sub driven by the full-range line-level input.
     
  18. Jeremy Anderson

    Jeremy Anderson Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 1999
    Messages:
    1,049
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Whoa... Honestly, Ali, that may take some research.
     

Share This Page