just auditioned a Parasound 1000A.......not too impressed (1 Viewer)

[Michael R Price]

I don't think replacing tubes often is a problem, although you could contact Scott to ask. I had recommended the tubed version since it has a stronger output than the $250 DacKit with no tube I/V stage. Depending on the gain of your amp that one could need a preamp to get the volume you want, but with the usual big solid state amp's input sensitivity of 1 volt or so that might not be a problem. Of course there are a lot of other choices for good low-cost DACs... I just wanted to steer you in the general direction. The Nixon products are very well regarded, though. And I like the idea of getting a separate set of electronics for music playback.

 

[John Royster]

Salvador,

If really want to make your PC the source for your music you may have to start looking at a good sound card. A decent m-audio board starts at 400 bucks. You can go on from there.

Then you could feed that into a nice pre-amp and your amplifier/studio 20s. You could use the 3802 for home theater but attach it to your stereo pre-amp to drive the front speakers.

In this way you have a pure 2-channel path for music and the additional processing/digital needed for home theater as an add on.

 

[Kevin Deacon]

If you have the ability to solder you should try the DIY preamp from Bottlehead. The preamp is called the Foreplay and is absolutely amazing for its price. I purchased mine with all the upgrades and it ran around $300.00. It is a tube preamp which uses 12au7 tubes which aren't expensive and will last many many hours. I just finished adding the last upgrade to mine and I can't believe how revealing this piece is. It's amazing how many of my cd's sound like crap through the Foreplay because of bad recordings(mainly new pop, 80's rock, etc..), but when I put in a fine recording like Pink Floyd-The Wall and some other SACD's the details shine through. Also, if your source machine isn't fairly high quality it will be revealed through the Foreplay. Check it out here: http://www.bottlehead.com/et/et.html

I am glad I happened on the Bottlehead products as I wanted to get into the two channel realm for cheap. BTW, I use a Parasound HCA-2200II which sounds great in my setup. Good Luck.

Sony SCD-C555ES
Bottlehead Foreplay Pre
Parasound HCA-2200II
Proac Response 2.5 clones
Outlaw ICBM - Bass Manager

 

[Salvador]

After taking in all the advice from this thread, thanks guys, i've tentatively concluded that the next logical step is to get a keeper 2-channel amp. All the recommendations to get a preamp is obviously not feasible for me because i don't have a separate amp yet.

My expections about the kind of improvement a separate amp would bring have been lowered. I'm expecting the real improvement to come when a 2-channel preamp and separate amp come together in my system.

Once i get an amp, i'll probably sell my 3802 right away. I have to make sure though that M-Audio fixes some lingering issues (loud thuds when you open/close the PC) with their soundcard before i do so.

thanks for all the advice!

 

[Mike Veroukis]

I'd say it's good to always upgrade the weakest link in any given system. I would say your weakest link isn't the 3802, I would instead consider trading up the Studio 20's for a full range speaker like the Studio 100s. Once you do that your next move will be to get an amp but in the meantime I think the 100's will give you the biggest SQ improvement in one single upgrade. The amp that you will pick later can more easily be judged with a full range speaker like the 100's, and in fact I'd argue that judging amps with a bookshelf speaker like the 20's alone might be misleading and counterproductive in the end.

That is my analysis of the situation. Good luck.

- Mike

 

[Jeff Kohn]

It's odd though cause when i tested the analog out of the Revo i was a disappointed by the sound. Could it be that the analog outs of the Revo connected to the ext-in of my 3802 would sound dramatically different if i had connected the Revo straight to a separate amp? Is the 3802 doing any *processing* with the signal even when connected to the ext-in?

I would think this would make a difference. The Revo DAC's are reported to be quite good, I wouldn't doubt they're better than what's in the 3802. Since you've decided to get a stereo amp, you should definitely try hooking the revo directly to the amp and see how you like it.

 

[Mike Veroukis]

The problem with upgrading my speakers first before the amp/preamp is that i would never hear the full potential of my 20's. And considering that the budget for my next speaker upgrade would probably be $1500USD, then i don't think that the 3802 would power them appropriately. Keep in mind though that i'm still sticking with bookshelves when i upgrade my speakers.

You're sticking with bookshelves? Well that changes everything! Forget the 100's, get the 40's! Seriously! As great as the 20's are, the 40's are a serious step up - and I'm not just saying that because I own 40's! Well, actually I am, but let's just say I first heard the 20's, which I really liked a lot, but when I heard the 40's they just blew me away. But anyway, here's my line of reasoning... With a better, more full ranged speaker you can better judge the capability of any amp. With the 20's you are more limited as they don't fully reproduce the full range as well, so in effect you're only judging part of an amp's capability. For example if you were comparing your Denon to the Parasound with Studio 100s I bet you any money the difference would be far more noticable. So, if you're stuck with bookshelves then make sure you got the best bookshelves you can afford(in my totally non-biased opinion , the 40's are a great deal for the money). Then get a nice Parasound/Rotel/Anthem 2ch 200W amp and you're set for life!

If you insist on using your PC for the "transport" then, well, your only other option is to make sure you have a decent sound card. In my home setup I just have a normal SB Live 5.1 and feed my receiver a PCM signal via digital coax. I'm not sure if quality of sound card makes a significant difference when all it does it pass along a digital signal. Jitter is the only thing I would worry about but that should be the least of (y)our concerns.

Btw, please tell me you're not building a dedicated mp3 system!!!

- Mike

 

[Mike Veroukis]

It's odd though cause when i tested the analog out of the Revo i was a disappointed by the sound. Could it be that the analog outs of the Revo connected to the ext-in of my 3802 would sound dramatically different if i had connected the Revo straight to a separate amp? Is the 3802 doing any *processing* with the signal even when connected to the ext-in

Have you tried hooking up the Revo to the 6ch inputs (for external 5.1 decoding) of the receiver? On my Yammie, the external decoder inputs bypass most of the circuitry, including bass/trable, bass management and DSP modes. This would give you the most direct signal from your receiver's inputs to your on-board amps.

- Mike

 

[Matt_Doug]

Salvador,
Future proof upgrade in amplification and speakers separately is very difficulty. Its best to upgrade both speakers & amps at the same time. Maximize what you have right now then save up for the big upgrade later. To maximize studio 20’s a quality outboard amp at around 100-150 watts into 8ohms and 200 into 4ohms root mean square (RMS) would be excellent . headroom for transients and quality circuitry to not mess with the signal is what to look for. I would also throw in a crossover maximized for the 20’s with a high pass around 50 Hz and with quality circuitry to not mess with the signal. If your circuit breaker can handle it plug at least all your 3 pronged plug components into a single duplex too limit ground loops, use a power strip if need be. My only final recommendation to maximize what you currently have is a quality signal isolation transformer to go between the 3802 and the Amp. It will leave behind any nasty ground loop voltages flowing through the cable shield – a Chu Gai recommend – again, with quality circuitry to not mess with the signal. All can be had for MSRP for less than $900.

BTW. Its been my experience that Computers with noisy power supply fans and processors are not good for critical stereo listening. Also I didn’t see you mention the center channel. You should know the studio cc needs solid power: 200 watts rms into 8ohms is optimal. The spare channel in your Samson 1000 would do nicely.

Just my 20 cents
Good luck

 

[Matt_Doug]

Bump - sorry

 

[Salvador]

BTW. Its been my experience that Computers with noisy power supply fans and processors are not good for critical stereo listening.

How come? Here's what a respected member from avsforum said about this issue.

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Originally posted by tsteves
I have always been very paranoid about using analog outputs from sound cards in computers. Seems like a nasty environment for analog audio.
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A month ago I would have agreed with that statement, and if you searched, you could find posts of mine where I expressed the same sentiments.

But then I got the bright idea to build a little RFI/EMI shielding "tent" to go over my sound card, to shield it from all that nasty, harsh electro-magnetic and radio-frequency interference inside my PC. I began doing the research - contacted some of the major players (companies) in this field - even managed to get phone numbers for/speak with engineers in the field who had studied EMI/RFI levels within PCs. They all said the same thing: "Don't waste your time. You could build it, but it would be nothing more than a placebo."

Apparently, many of the common sources of RFI/EMI within the PC are already shielded to some extent (where possible) - thus the FCC certifications. Beyond that, according to the experts, the cards in your PC and mine are already shielded - they are multi-layer boards incorporating shielding layers specifically to guard against the noise that you and I (and all the audiophile/tweaks in this forum) are so terribly concerned about.

Of course, this is going to be an unpopular viewpoint and is bound to come under fire from those very same audiophiles... if they can't point the finger at "the PC's harsh environment", then that only leaves jitter (and maybe exotic "audiophile-grade" resistors and capacitors ) as the one thing they can point their finger at when they adamantly proclaim that "a PC will never sound as good as a high-end preamp!"
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[Chu Gai]

some interesting information involving measurements and what not regarding soundcards can be found here.
http://www.pcavtech.com/
other interesting stuff too

 

[Matt_Doug]

------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
BTW. Its been my experience that Computers with noisy power supply fans and processors are not good for critical stereo listening.


How come? Here's what a respected member from avsforum said about this issue...
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You misunderstand. I'm sure the bit stream coming out of your computer is fine but there's usually a fan on the cpu heat sink, a fan on the power supply, a hard drive spinning at 5000 rpm+, super fast cd roms, DVD’s and other drives maximized for throughput only and no dampening of mechanical noise. all resonating within a metal chassis. Get the picture?

 

[Jeff Kohn]

If you want to argue that the noise inside a PC could affect analog sound, I might buy that, although I think with a well designed soundcard the impact would be far less than what your typical audiophile snob says it is.

But to say that any RF noise in a PC would affect a digital output is nonsense. I would rank that right up there with claims of after-market power cords that "improve the imaging and soundstage", or $300/foot interconnects "making the sound richer and warmer". In other words, I think it's a load of crap and there's just no science to back it up, only "audiophile" voodoo and snobbery.

 

[Jeff Kohn]

You misunderstand. I'm sure the bit stream coming out of your computer is fine but there's usually a fan on the cpu heat sink, a fan on the power supply, a hard drive spinning at 5000 rpm+, super fast cd roms, DVD’s and other drives maximized for throughput only and no dampening of mechanical noise. all resonating within a metal chassis. Get the picture?

Well, if you're talking about actual noise as opposed to interfence, that can be dealt with. I've got the noise down to pretty much nil from my HTPC thanks to large heatsinks, special low-rpm fans, and hard drive enclosures. My HTPC is as quiet or more quiet than your typical satellite receiver with fan and/or hard drive (ie Tivo, UltimateTV, Dish 6000). It can only be heard from the seating position in absolute silence, and even then it's difficult to hear. With music or movies playing, you can't hear it (even during quiet passages).

 

[Matt_Doug]

Yes Jeff, mechanical noise like that generated from spinning disks and whirring fans. I never questioned the digital or even analog signal integrity of computers. Distortion in the signal is just as devastating to computers as it is to sound equipment. Audiophile snob? I don't think so.

 

[Salvador]

You misunderstand. I'm sure the bit stream coming out of your computer is fine but there's usually a fan on the cpu heat sink, a fan on the power supply, a hard drive spinning at 5000 rpm+, super fast cd roms, DVD’s and other drives maximized for throughput only and no dampening of mechanical noise. all resonating within a metal chassis. Get the picture?

Boy did i go the other direction!!! Haha, yeah noise was quite an issue when i first built my pc. When i built my pc 2 years ago, i didn't take into consideration noise levels at all since it was going to be my gaming machine at the time, not an HTPC. After about 1 year with it i realized how LOUD my pc was. 7200 cpu fan, IBM hard drive that had this extremely annoying high pitched whine, PSU fan noise, dang my system was so loud you could hear it in the kitchen even though my room was upstairs!!!

So i slowly put together changes that made my pc a whole lot quieter. First of all i removed the 7200 dragon orb screamer that i had and put on a massive swiftech heatsink and a low rpm Vantec stealth fan. That improved the noise levels tremendously but now the IBM 60GXP hd was just getting really really really annoying. So i changed that into 2 seagate barracuda IV's. Man those barracuda's are pretty quiet, quiet enough that the only thing i can hear from my pc are the PSU fans. That's the next thing i'm going to take care of but at the meantime the noise level is very good.

 

[ChadLB]

I own a Pioneer 811 and went to my local HI FI store and they hooked up a HCA750A and there was definately improvement in sound over just the internal amps. The music was more detailed and there was more bass. This was with the receiver just in stereo mode and no extras turned on. I think I will be adding a amp to my 811 in the next couple months just need to decide which one.

 

[Michael R Price]

Salvador,

Did you compare MP3 to CD at all using the separate amplifier? I find it hard to believe you could not tell a difference. I used to listen to MP3's but playing CDs through a separate player is just so much better it's worth the money and lesser convenience. MP3 is compressed, noisier, and much less clear compared to a CD. This is true at least with the MP3 I've listened to, including 256k, but your mileage may vary.

I personally recommend just buying the DacAttack/TubeDac for music use (use direct PCM output from CD player in your computer), and then a good stereo amplifier (toss the 3802 and use your 6 channel analog output for movies). Bingo, you've got a much better separate stereo system. I say hold on to the Studio 20's for now, play with their placement, etc.

 

[Salvador]

I personally recommend just buying the DacAttack/TubeDac for music use (use direct PCM output from CD player in your computer), and then a good stereo amplifier (toss the 3802 and use your 6 channel analog output for movies).

I'm considering that option but as i said, separate amp first before separate preamp.