Joker (2019 Movie) (2 Viewers)

[Bryan^H]

So there was absolutely nothing in the film you liked?

Robert Deniro gave a very good performance as the talk show host. Murray Franklin.

Just because I hate the film doesn't mean that I can't recognize the talented actors in it.

 

[ChristopherG]

That's interesting as I thought Deniro was just being Deniro. Nothing new there and pretty much par for the course for him. Different strokes I suppose....

 

[Bryan^H]

That's interesting as I thought Deniro was just being Deniro. Nothing new there and pretty much par for the course for him. Different strokes I suppose....

I thought he was believable as a talk show host. Would much rather watched a two hour character study of Murray instead of Arthur Fleck.

 

[MartinP.]

I'm of two minds about this film. On the one hand, it's a very intriguing study of "Arthur Fleck." A loser-type who lives with his mother, has mental problems and an unusual condition, a poor job and lives in low class conditions. Society is becoming increasingly divided between those who run things and those who don't believe any of them. (Like now?) The story is basically an origin story of how the character of the Joker comes to be. We can mostly understand this guy's journey to how he becomes what he does. (There's also some origin stuff to Bruce Wayne's beginnings, with emphasis on his father. Who knew Bruce Wayne's father was a douchebag?)

The film is set in a Gotham City that feels like 1970's New York City with garbage strikes, filth, vintage cars and a talk show patterned after The Tonight Show is the nightly routine. (Robert DeNiro plays the Johnny Carson stand-in.) Most people think it's the 1970's, but there's a scene near the end with a movie marquee that shows Zorro, the Gay Blade and Body Heat playing. Those were both released in 1981. A lot of the film is quite interesting and intriguing. It's a film I might say I liked.

My problem is that this film pretty much shows the birth of a pretty psychotic criminal. We never embrace this guy from the start as someone we like. At least I didn't. Through the movie there are some very violent and/or pretty brutal scenes and this criminal in the making ultimately is embraced by the public in the film, but there are no consequences. It's like a coming out party. You might like a movie with an arc like this where the criminal is caught or jailed or pays a price. Or like an anti-hero you like, but know they really shouldn't be doing what they do and will get caught and punished. There's no such consequences in this film.

So it's a film I was intrigued with and repulsed at simultaneously and the results of how it plays out didn't leave me choosing either side of those emotions as my opinion of it.

As a performance...well, I think Phoenix acts a lot like this character anyway.

Post edited by Moderator to remove overt political references.

 

[MattBradley]

Watched the movie and enjoyed seeing the origin story of this version of Joker. Seeing this character finally get the recognition he desired was creepy and very well acted. I know he only becomes Joker at the end of the film but I still have a hard time seeing this guy going toe to toe with the Dark Knight. It seems that a few punches from the Bat and this guy is going down hard. Is this the personality that takes his therapist and messes her mind up so much that she leaves a normal life and joins him? Not that I can see. Still, seeing a background on a character that changes his story every chance he gets in the comics was entertaining and sometimes gut wrenching. Glad they took the risk to make this film and will hopefully look at other characters to examine like this in the future.

 

[Colin Jacobson]

I don’t think that’s what I said at all.
I’m just talking about what happened in the movie not real life.

We can tell that Arthur's had a pretty miserable life. He has severe mental illness and he was raised by someone with severe mental illness.

Yet you pooh-pooh that. Sorry, but that looks like a dismissal of the impact of mental illness to me...

If you think this isn’t supposed to represent the guy who becomes The Joker then I don’t know what to say to you.

As I noted in another thread, it's not my theory, but it's a plausible one - perhaps probable. There are a bunch of reasons why it makes more sense that Arthur inspires the person who becomes Batman's foe, such as the fact Arthur is so much older than Bruce.

In the comics, they're reasonably close in age.

In the movie, Arthur is a good 30-35 years older. It's not clear how old Arthur is, but JP is 45, so it make sense to believe Arthur is supposed to be at least 40.

Arthur seems to be a good 30 years older than Bruce, which would mean Joker would be around 60 when Batman begins.

We've seen "older Jokers" in media - Nicholson was 52, Romero was 59 - but never such a huge gap.

Many have also indicated that it seems unlikely the not-especially-intelligent Arthur could go on to become a master criminal.

Plus other reasons.

I don't claim as a fact that Arthur isn't the guy who becomes Batman's nemesis, but you shouldn't just accept it at face value.

If ever there was a movie where virtually nothing should be taken at face value, this is it!

 

[Colin Jacobson]

ok it’s not his fault that he becomes a serial killer.

No one says that.

Comments like this don't really help your claim that you're not dismissive toward people with mental illness.

Oh, and the movie's Joker isn't a "serial killer" anyway!

 

[Colin Jacobson]

I thought he was believable as a talk show host. Would much rather watched a two hour character study of Murray instead of Arthur Fleck.

Ironic that you liked that part, since many people have felt that De Niro was wrong for the role.

It's unclear if Murray's show is national or just a Gotham thing, but since it looks a lot like Carson's "Tonight", many have felt it's national.

Hard to believe the gruff Murray would be loved in the US heartland! De Niro also shows no real touch for the comedic side of the role.

I didn't dislike him as Murray but I don't really buy him as a chat show host...

 

[Colin Jacobson]

Probably the worst movie I have ever seen in my entire life. Not joking.

Perhaps not joking, but exaggerating wildly - or you've seen maybe 5 movies in your life.

Hate the movie if you want, but worst movie you've ever seen? Seriously???

 

[Mike Frezon]

Guys. We've been spending too much time questioning the validity of people's opinions on the last couple of pages rather than discuss the merits/demerits of the film.

Criticize the film all you want--positive or negative-- (after all, that's what we're here for), but let's not criticize each other for having those opinions.

Thanks.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Post edited by Moderator to remove overt political references.

This is a big reason why I don't think I will comment on this picture. I do find this film is very much commenting on politics and as Martin says specifically highlighting the "lack of consequences" some people fear in these circumstances. So, I would prefer not to get into it because I think if I do I believe a moderator would need to remove my post and I just don't want to start anymore trouble around here than I think some people already feel I do, ha!

I will say this, reading about this film around the internet I did get the impression that there are a lot of people that work in the business or in writing about the business that don't really like Todd Phillips at all for reasons unknown to me. Prior to this film I had no idea who Phillips was nor what he had worked on previously. So, it did come as a surprise to me how many nominations this film got from the academy. To some extent I do wonder if the nominations do come from the political ideas this picture expresses. I do think Phoenix gives an excellent and intense (as usual) performance so fair game nominating that but I would be sort of surprised if it won awards outside of one for him.

I do think this is a film of our time expressing the frustration of hopelessness, violence, crime without consequence, and a general bubbling anger that seems to infest our society. I think this was set in the world of comic book figures in the hope that more people would see it. I do sort of question though how many people have seen it understand it.

 

[TravisR]

I think this was set in the world of comic book figures in the hope that more people would see it. I do sort of question though how many people have seen it understand it.

It's the old Rod Serling (and many others) trick of hiding societal commentary in a form that is more palatable. Like all commentary, it was lost on some people who just liked seeing the Joker lash out at the people who picked on him or people who just wanted to see a movie & have no interest in thinking about it.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

It's the old Rod Serling (and many others) trick of hiding societal commentary in a form that is more palatable. Like all commentary, it was lost on some people who just liked seeing the Joker lash out at the people who picked on him or people who just wanted to see a movie & have no interest in thinking about it.

Agreed, I think that he could have taken all the comic book references out of this picture and just shot a story about a guy with mental illness that is losing his way in the world and becoming very dangerous but then far fewer people would have bothered to see it. It would have been thought of as a little art house picture.

Call it Joker and add references to Batman and suddenly all kinds of people turn up to see it. Then a lot of them of course find this is not much of a comic book film and that it is nasty and ugly. Oops.

Phoenix did a picture called You Were Never Really Here and you could identify things it has in common with this picture but no references to Batman...it's a great picture, better than Joker I think...and far fewer people bothered to see it.

So, there are two things that really stand out to me about Joker, his performance, and the idea that the film itself is sort of a confrontational experience for the audience that is holding a mirror up to our world.

All the stuff about who this Joker is really I find unimportant and really not the point at all. It's not a movie about how he fits into "canon" it's about something else entirely.

 

[JimmyO]

Watched the movie and enjoyed seeing the origin story of this version of Joker. Seeing this character finally get the recognition he desired was creepy and very well acted. I know he only becomes Joker at the end of the film but I still have a hard time seeing this guy going toe to toe with the Dark Knight. It seems that a few punches from the Bat and this guy is going down hard. Is this the personality that takes his therapist and messes her mind up so much that she leaves a normal life and joins him? Not that I can see. Still, seeing a background on a character that changes his story every chance he gets in the comics was entertaining and sometimes gut wrenching. Glad they took the risk to make this film and will hopefully look at other characters to examine like this in the future.

Which Dark Knight are you referring to? The ones you know already?

That's the intriguing thing about this film. This particular Joker is in a universe where Batman doesn't exist yet. The creators of this universe can make Batman anything they want and they can also allow the passage of time be used to make the Joker much more savvy, clever, and cunningly criminal-like if they wanted to. If they do create a Dark Knight within this universe, will he be a big, hulking brute of a human or a more simple Batman like from the original TV show, without the campy elements? Batman doesn't have to be an imposing muscle bound character. Keaton wasn't.

Or it might go nowhere at all - a one-off film with no further commentary on the Batman world.

 

[Bryan^H]

Ironic that you liked that part, since many people have felt that De Niro was wrong for the role.

Why is it ironic? I'm not "many people", and I don't care what they think. I have never seen DeNiro in that type of role. I thought it was the only thing worth watching in this mess of a movie.

 

[JimmyO]

Ironic that you liked that part, since many people have felt that De Niro was wrong for the role.

It's unclear if Murray's show is national or just a Gotham thing, but since it looks a lot like Carson's "Tonight", many have felt it's national.

Hard to believe the gruff Murray would be loved in the US heartland! De Niro also shows no real touch for the comedic side of the role.

I didn't dislike him as Murray but I don't really buy him as a chat show host...

Also felt DeNiro was off. His cadence sometimes felt like he was reading from cue cards.

 

[Bryan^H]

Watched the movie and enjoyed seeing the origin story of this version of Joker. Seeing this character finally get the recognition he desired was creepy and very well acted. I know he only becomes Joker at the end of the film but I still have a hard time seeing this guy going toe to toe with the Dark Knight. It seems that a few punches from the Bat and this guy is going down hard.

That was one of my many issues with the film. Arthur Fleck comes off as skin, and bones frail, little man child. He seriously acts like a 5 year old much of the time (maybe younger?) in both actions and speech. If he was indeed a creepy presence in the film I would have liked the film. I didn't find him creepy, or threatening. I found him annoying, and juvenile.

The Joker...at least the Joker that I know is a mastermind supervillain eccentric, and brilliant.


There is no way This Joker could go toe to toe with Batman, unless he has his hundred or so followers/henchmen to do all his dirty work.
There is speculation that this may not even be the real Joker, at least the one that fights Batman. We might find out if there is a sequel, and given the billion dollar box office that most likely will happen.

 

[Bryan^H]

Also felt DeNiro was off. His cadence sometimes felt like he was reading from cue cards.

I didn't think that at all, and could completely see him as an 80's late night talk show host.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

There is no way This Joker could go toe to toe with Batman

Definitely not a movie about fighting Batman. That's the thing about this film I think, if people go into it thinking they are getting a story about Batman's super villain...well...that ain't this picture. Which I am sure is why some people don't like it.

 

[Bryan^H]

Definitely not a movie about fighting Batman.

Never said it was. But being the Joker is kind of Batman's main nemesis, one would assume they will come to meet at some point. And if this is solely a Gotham city without Batman ever existing, and Joker goes unchecked in his criminal activity with all his crazed followers well therein lies the problem.