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Jargon watch: image issue terms explained, myths dispelled (1 Viewer)

ChromeJob

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Feeling left out, baffled, unclear if what you're seeing is what another user or reviewer is complaining about? Having trouble getting through a review with technobabble you just don't understand? Want to learn more about what makes a BD release a good image, or a bad one?

Don't worry, HTF is here to help.

This post will serve as a lookup index for terms like "black crush," "halo," "thin grain," "DNR," "ringing" ....

Definitions will be linked to threads where the definitions are. Please do not define terms in this thread; reply to this thread to ask for a term to be included/linked, or ask if some jargon you tripped over actually is a thing.

This thread is just starting out.... Stay tuned.
 

Robert Harris

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ChromeJob said:
Feeling left out, baffled, unclear if what you're seeing is what another user or reviewer is complaining about? Having trouble getting through a review with technobabble you just don't understand? Want to learn more about what makes a BD release a good image, or a bad one?


Don't worry, HTF is here to help.


This post will serve as a lookup index for terms like "black crush," "halo," "thin grain," "DNR," "ringing" ....


Definitions will be linked to threads where the definitions are. Please do not define terms in this thread; reply to this thread to ask for a term to be included/linked, or ask if some jargon you tripped over actually is a thing.


This thread is just starting out.... Stay tuned.

  • Black Crush
  • DNR
  • "thin grain"

What is "thin grain?" Something new?
 

Dave Upton

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RAH, I think if you don't know what it is, that's pretty telling. I suppose someone used the term to describe the grain in a frame. Perhaps they mean coarse grain vs fine grain based on original film type?
 

ChromeJob

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Robert Harris said:
What is "thin grain?" Something new?

Well, Rory*M tried an explanation here. I thought I remembered it wrong,... neope. But yes, if you don't recognize a term, it could be nonsense, or new jargon for which a correct professional term exists.
 

Dr Griffin

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Aliasing is something that also bothers me, something that will pop up from the DVD days occasionally on Blu-ray, where a complex pattern will seem to move due to insufficient bits. How does it get onto discs? Is it laziness? There is also the term shimmering, which is related, but I'm not sure of the difference. Also include moire effect, which, I believe in video terms, is ghosting of an image. Finally, banding - which is an insufficiency of shading gradation, causing those definable bands between shades of color, especially in underwater or very dark scenes - these have always reminded me of poor cable broadcasts. You don't want to see that on the industry's premier format. This is how I understand these terms, any additional information or corrections welcome.
 

Dr Griffin

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By the way, when I said add 'videoey", I was kidding. In no way did I mean this as a serious descriptive term. :)
 

ChromeJob

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Dr Griffin said:
Aliasing is something that also bothers me, something that will pop up from the DVD days occasionally on Blu-ray, where a complex pattern will seem to move due to insufficient bits. How does it get onto discs? Is it laziness? There is also the term shimmering, which is related, but I'm not sure of the difference. Also include moire effect, which, I believe in video terms, is ghosting of an image. Finally, banding - which is an insufficiency of shading gradation, causing those definable bands between shades of color, especially in underwater or very dark scenes - these have always reminded me of poor cable broadcasts. You don't want to see that on the industry's premier format. This is how I understand these terms, any additional information or corrections welcome.
Good one, adding it.


Dr Griffin, on 22 Apr 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:
By the way, when I said add 'videoey", I was kidding. In no way did I mean this as a serious descriptive term. [ :)]

I've heard it used ... e.g. turning on motion or blur reduction software on TVs results in a "soap opera" look. I'm curious why that appearance occurs .. is it an increase of the TV's scan rate (i.e. the BD player is outputting 24p, but the TV is display 120p or something,... I'm not sure.
 

Dr Griffin

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Yes, I've heard it used too. I think it would be more of a cumulative effect with a film source where a lot is done wrong either with a video master or settings on a TV.
 

Dr Griffin

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ChromeJob said:
Dr Griffin, on 22 Apr 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

Aliasing is something that also bothers me, something that will pop up from the DVD days occasionally on Blu-ray, where a complex pattern will seem to move due to insufficient bits. How does it get onto discs? Is it laziness? There is also the term shimmering, which is related, but I'm not sure of the difference. Also include moire effect, which, I believe in video terms, is ghosting of an image. Finally, banding - which is an insufficiency of shading gradation, causing those definable bands between shades of color, especially in underwater or very dark scenes - these have always reminded me of poor cable broadcasts. You don't want to see that on the industry's premier format. This is how I understand these terms, any additional information or corrections welcome.


Good one, adding it.



Dr Griffin, on 22 Apr 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

By the way, when I said add 'videoey", I was kidding. In no way did I mean this as a serious descriptive term. [ :)]


I've heard it used ... e.g. turning on motion or blur reduction software on TVs results in a "soap opera" look. I'm curious why that appearance occurs .. is it an increase of the TV's scan rate (i.e. the BD player is outputting 24p, but the TV is display 120p or something,... I'm not sure.

There were actually 4 different terms I mentioned in that post : aliasing, shimmering (specific definition needed), moire effect and banding.
 

ROclockCK

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Mike Frezon said:
"Jaggies"


And maybe the difference, for example, between "1080i" and "1080p." Or, "780i" and "780p."

Like "image harvest", "jaggies" is another bit of home video jargon which I consider borderline acceptable Mike, at least in casual fan discourse. Of course, I'm not defending it technically; it would be totally out of place in any formal review, but it does at least evoke a clear image of what is being discussed.


My only real problem with "jaggies" is its basic meaninglessness unless you quantify it. I mean, all digital signals will alias...just more or less apparent depending the sampling rate and display scale of enlargement.


Actually, I think I just convinced myself that "jaggies" is actually kind of dumb...basically, too imprecise regardless how you use it. :unsure:
 

Mike Frezon

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As I explained to the OP in a PM, I was just trying to help by suggesting some terms I have read in various critiques of PQ in home video presentations that I thought might help this little project.


But maybe they really don't fit in to the precise idea of this thread. No worries on my part. :thumbsup:


PQ is not a subject of expertise for me,,,
 

Dr Griffin

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Mike Frezon said:
As I explained to the OP in a PM, I was just trying to help by suggesting some terms I have read in various critiques of PQ in home video presentations that I thought might help this little project.


But maybe they really don't fit in to the precise idea of this thread. No worries on my part. :thumbsup:


PQ is not a subject of expertise for me,,,

I think all the things mentioned are relevant. I think the idea is to better understand what the reviewers are seeing and describing. I know I wouldn't want to buy a Blu-ray that was littered with jaggies.
 

Dr Griffin

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Apparently jaggies and aliasing are one and the same. It would be nice to have one of our industry insiders set us straight in this thread. :)
 

Persianimmortal

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Jaggies is a common term used in PC gaming, referring to aliasing. It's simply a layman's description of what aliasing looks like, namely jagged edges. Much the same as the term "star-step effect", and also similar to shimmering, which is what happens when finely aliased edges are in motion - they appear to shimmer and crawl, which can be distracting. They're all aliasing-related terms.
 

Stephen_J_H

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In discussing "ringing" artifacts, a clear distinction will need to be drawn between those that are created by artificial sharpening, and those that naturally occur from the interaction of lens types, flim stock, lighting, etc., because some ringing is baked into the photography and is now part of the overall aesthetic of the film.
 

Robert Harris

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ROclockCK said:
Like "image harvest", "jaggies" is another bit of home video jargon which I consider borderline acceptable Mike, at least in casual fan discourse. Of course, I'm not defending it technically; it would be totally out of place in any formal review, but it does at least evoke a clear image of what is being discussed.


My only real problem with "jaggies" is its basic meaninglessness unless you quantify it. I mean, all digital signals will alias...just more or less apparent depending the sampling rate and display scale of enlargement.


Actually, I think I just convinced myself that "jaggies" is actually kind of dumb...basically, too imprecise regardless how you use it. :unsure:

You're off my Christmas list. I created the term "image harvest."


It was meant to be an overall term, referencing the raw quality of what was derived from the film element via digital scanning.


RAH
 

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