J6p and the black bars

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Joe McKeown, Oct 10, 2001.

  1. Joe McKeown

    Joe McKeown Stunt Coordinator

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    Firstly, I wholeheartedly agree with OAR and widescreen, I've even converted a few people myself.
    That said, I want to take a devil's advocate position on something that really pisses me off in Ron's other thread.
    (also I don't want this argument to pollute Ron's worthy cause by adding this to his thread)
    Now, on to the controversy...
    Why do these idiots pressure studios to release in Pan and scan, but no one pressures filmmakers to film in open matte?
    I hate movies that are not widescreen, but I admit that the argument seems a little watered down at the prospect of full-frame open matte. Even the "Artistic Vision" argument gets a little soft if you were to know that the director WAS thinking about a full-frame release when the vision was hatched.
     
  2. Patrick McCart

    Patrick McCart Lead Actor

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    A lot of filmmakers prefer non-scope formats for a lot of great reasons...
    Filming in open matte or Super-35 allows a sharper picture, better focus, and it's a lot easier for presentation.
    If I were to make a film, I'd film in open matte.
    Theaters even prefer 1.85:1 films because it's eaiser to present a great image. Scope pictures are a bitch to focus and are hard to edit.
    If the public can only get OAR, they'll live with it. If letterboxing was a norm since the beginning, there would be no problem now.
    It's like letting a child keep using pacifier when they're 15 years old. Take off the training wheels!
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  3. Ken Chan

    Ken Chan Producer

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    The only legit complaint about letterboxing is that everything is smaller. (Is the threat of burn-in legit?) The only thing about open matte is that parts of the screen that would be unused in letterboxing now have stuff in them -- hardly compelling.
    As for "vision" -- it's really a lot simpler to compose for one frame. Why water things down to compose for two?
    You have to stage for open matte, keeping the dolly tracks and boom mikes out. More effort there.
    You would have to render special effects to fill this whole frame -- and more and more films use subtle effects nowadays -- even when they won't be seen in the theater.
    All this wasted effort and expense to placate J6P?
    //Ken
     
  4. george kaplan

    george kaplan Executive Producer

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    This is off-topic, but when I saw the title of the thread I instantly thought of it as the name of a band.
    "Ilene's Starlight Room proudly presents the best polka band west of San Francisco, Joe Sixpack and the Black Bars!"
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  5. Tom Rags

    Tom Rags Supporting Actor

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    More band name suggestions:
    The SVS Club
    5.1
    The Rolling Bars
    Rear Projection
    Breaking Street Dates
    Bjorn and the Superbits
    Livin' la Nina Rota
    The Downward Firing Subs
     
  6. Rob Tomlin

    Rob Tomlin Producer

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  7. Joe McKeown

    Joe McKeown Stunt Coordinator

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    quote: As for "vision" -- it's really a lot simpler to compose for one frame. Why water things down to compose for two?[/quote]
    I doubt it is simpler than taking a 2.35:1 and deciding which half to throw out. I mean think about it, Which happens more, seing a boom in an open matte, or getting dizzy as the panning just won't let up.
    quote: You would have to render special effects to fill this whole frame -- and more and more films use subtle effects nowadays -- even when they won't be seen in the theater.[/quote]
    Still, I imagine most movies get more playtime in home video than in the theaters. It's pretty rare for me to see a movie in the theater more than once, but on video I'll watch it dozens and dozens of times. Assuming I'm not alone in that profile, I would image it would be well worth rendering the full frame.
    quote: All this wasted effort and expense to placate J6P?[/quote]
    YUP, there is no way to make that sound good. I quite agree it's a stupid proposition. My point though is: I believe there would be less time, less expense, and less controversy if the EXTRA frame content was produced up front. Rather than allow the director to shoot wide, then have some studio numbnuts decide how to cut out the sides. and obviously placating J6P seems to be a priority for the studios.
    Imagine in the future how much of these "subtle special effects" will be relagated to telecine limbo.
    Joe
    P.S. Look for "Telecine Limbo" the new smash hit single from The Rolling Bars.
    P.P.S. I don't know what kind of music The Downward Firing Subs play but I don't think I would like it. Sounds like more like a euphmism for gas.
    [Edited last by Joe McKeown on October 10, 2001 at 07:42 PM]
     
  8. Martin Rendall

    Martin Rendall Screenwriter

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    Does J6P drink the normal cans, or the tall boys?
    I friend of mine, who's got an impressive 5.1 system and a 4x3 tv, watches his widescreen movies with the DVD players in 16x9 mode, to fill more of the screen, even though it stretches the image. So why would a knowledgeable person (he is) do this? Because he wants to. That's all the justification he needs. If J6P wants P&S, that's all the justification they need. I don't like it, but I can respect it.
    Martin.
     
  9. TomRS4

    TomRS4 Stunt Coordinator

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    'Extra frame content'? Do you mean the garbage portion when a film is shot open matte? Why would we want to see that? So we can see John Cleese in his underwear when the story line has him naked? I have no use for it.
    As you may have guessed, I'm all for the director's intended aspect ratio being the only one available. If somebody wants to watch a film cropped, panned & scanned, up-side-down, or whatever, fine. Just let the rest of us that care about the movie continue to have OAR.
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  10. Derek Duncan

    Derek Duncan Stunt Coordinator

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    I myself can't stand open mat movies, and would never shoot a movie open mat if I were a filmmaker. My hobbie is photography, and love 2.35 films. Pan and scan is evil, and I think we shouldn't give people a choice, we should ram widescreen in their face, that's what I did in my family, they complained at first, but they will only watch widescreen now. That is my opinion.
    Derek
     
  11. Joe McKeown

    Joe McKeown Stunt Coordinator

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    TomRS4
    I want OAR too.
    You miss the point of my question;
    Given that some people at the studios disagree with us; The question becomes: Why do the marketing types seem to prefer P&S over open matte?
    To me it seems obvious that open matte is the lesser of two evils. You think these marketing types would push for more open matte content, rather than happily dropping off the sides.
    Personally, I think the solution to the whole Pan and scan issue is to simply stop doing it. That means stop releasing VHS in P&S too. It seems as though the J6P's think of the black bars as a DVD thing when it's not. Wide screen the VHS tapes too, then the issue is closed. If you want to see this movie, you look at it like it was made to be seen.
    Again though, why to the studios that conclude consumers want full frame believe that P&S is the way to give it to them?
     
  12. Joe McKeown

    Joe McKeown Stunt Coordinator

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    Derek
    I did the same thing, long before the DVD players, I just stopped buying tapes that weren't widescreen. There were some protestations from the wife, that turned to joking, that turned to eye-rolling, that turned to acceptance.
    At some point she started to prefer widescreen over P&S.
    The funny thing is my two kids don't care at all. and neither do the kids of any of my friends. Disney's Mulan, lets you pick, and the kids don't give a damn which one goes.
    I don't know where the studios get the kids thing from.
     
  13. Derek Duncan

    Derek Duncan Stunt Coordinator

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    Funny story, I let my 2 year old cousin Brittney watch A Bug's Life on DVD in widescreen, she loved the film, and last week her mom bought her the vhs tape(ugh!), later that day her mom told me that she complained because the black bars were not there, she didn't know anything about widescreen, but she knew something was different.
    Derek
     
  14. frank manrique

    frank manrique Supporting Actor

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    PatrickMcart,
    Why should focusing scope films be harder than spherical films? Are you a cinema house projectionist?
    Thank God you weren't around when Ultra-Panavision, an anomorphic 70mm (65mm) format, was used to photograph superb film epics like Ben-Hur, Mutiny On The Bounty, and Khartoum...or when David Lean shot Lawrence Of Arabia in spherical 70mm...or when The Robe was shot in CinemaScope...or The Ten Commandments shot in 8-perf VistaVision 35mm...or when Oklahoma! was shot in both CinemaScope 55mm and Todd/AO 70mm...or when The Magnificent Seven was shot in Panavision anomorphic scope...or when Kurosawa shot his films in anomorphic Tojoscope...and here again, when Jaws, the Star Wars and Indy Jones trilogies were photographed in Panavision scope...need I say more?...
    -THTS
     
  15. Tom Oh

    Tom Oh Second Unit

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    I had to educate my little brother who just recently purchased a Mitsubishi Diamond series 16X9 RPTV. He called to complain that he still saw black bars on top and botom and that the reason he bought the widescreen RPTV was to avoid these bars. He even asked if there was a way to make it go away! Now he understands and he prefers films in 1.85:1 ratio! [​IMG]
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  16. Inspector Hammer!

    Inspector Hammer! Executive Producer

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    Jerry!! Where are you!?!
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  17. Neil Joseph

    Neil Joseph Lead Actor

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    I think they should have a second version of the movie, just for J6P's. Get rid of the features since they are not into that anyway. Get rid of any menus and have it start right at the commercials, then the movie. We could even make it easy for them by putting it on an analog format (digital is often times too complicated anyway). Heck, we could even put it on an analog tape device and be able to play it on any VCR. That way, they won't have to spend money on another player.
    There, problem solved!!!
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  18. AdrianOC

    AdrianOC Stunt Coordinator

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    If J6P want pan n'scam then let him buy vhs buy leave dvd alone.
    Or I'll beat you up. Or get someone else to do it.
    Oh, to rid the world of J6P's who haven't a clue and can't be educated on why its better...
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  19. JonZ

    JonZ Lead Actor

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    I made a comment in another thread about bars on the sides when watching a 4:3 image on a 1:78 TV(which will most likely be standard in about 10 years).
    The bars arent going away, so J6P will never be happy.
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    [Edited last by JonZ on October 11, 2001 at 09:34 AM]
     
  20. Jason Whyte

    Jason Whyte Screenwriter

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