It isn't edge enhancement... (1 Viewer)

[Bruce Hedtke]

If it's an MPEG compression artifact, there really is nothing that can be done, except use a smaller compression scale. DVD's are compressed at around 80:1 rates and that is just so you can fit the film and audio tracks and commentaries and extras on it. If you were to use a smaller compression scale, the film would have to be spread over several discs. For example, a totally uncompressed transfer would garner you about 2 minutes of footage.
On the other hand, I too seem to be unable to detect all of the EE that alot of people claim to be there. Some, but not ALL. Either I am not "sensitive" (not really the best word, I know) enough or my eyes or brain overlook it. And, I have NEVER seen the "halo" effect. I would think that the way it is described, it would be unmissable, even to an untrained eye.
Bruce
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[Chris Maynard]

Carl - I never said it doesn't need to be addressed. I dislike EE as much as the next person here.
The point is that it is being way over-blown and in fact, sometimes, mis-diagnosed.
I just watched the TPM DVD on a 30+ foot screen from about 35 feet away. Yes I saw ringing...and no it didn't cause a huge problem or distraction.
I DO believe what we are seeing sometimes are mpeg artifacts and other issues other than edge enhancement.
When a studio exec goes down and asks the transfer people "did you use EE on this title?" do you think they would lie about it? Why would they?

 

[Brian-W]

If it's being applied on purpose, then for heaven's sake, WHY? HTF videophile geeks hate it. The only person it could possibly improve the picture for is your average Joe watching DVDs on his 19" set

...and the studios want to see to it that J6P of all people is pleased.
HTF geeks don't make up the majority of purchases. In most cases, the die-hard fans (i.e. the HTF geeks in this case) don't make up the majority of sales.
J6P may be reviled, but that's who accounts for the mass majority of sales in any given situation. Don't get me wrong, the die-hard guys like us are very important, but ultimately it's J6P that the studios need to hit.
-Brian

 

[cafink]

...and the studios want to see to it that J6P of all people is pleased.

Joe Sixpack doesn't know what Edge Enhancement is. He doesn't care. He won't notice the effects of it. He's probably got the sharpness on his TV turned up way too high as it is.
If you apply too much EE, you'll lose sales from anal-retentive HT geeks. But do you think that ANYONE, "J6P" or otherwise, would ever NOT buy a title because it DOESN'T have any EE?

 

[Heinz W]

Wow, away for a few days and things get interesting! First the '01 Studio Day report and now this thread.
First and foremost, back when I first became aware of 'EE' (Thanks again, Bjoern! For nothing!

) I too wondered if perhaps this was some type of compression issue. This was around the time of the 2001 remaster release. I wondered how and why the same film could have a virtually flawless transfer in some scenes (apes huddled against the cliff face, Discovery sequence) and suffer horrible ringing in others (apes gathered around Monolith, Dr. Floyd on space station and Moon).
From there I noticed two things about this phenomena right away: 1) It was most prevalent, apparent, or both in high contrast scenes, ie outside in daylight; and 2) It was more prevalent/apparent on vertical contrasting edges. And guess what? That's on a 32" uncalibrated set. No I don't have the sharpness way up, nor the brightness for that matter. So I'm AM seeing SOMETHING here, call it what you will.
I attemped to elicit a response from someone who might be more knowledgeable than me about this and could perhaps confirm or refute this as being an artificial, added on effect, or MPEG compression, or God knows what else. Every thread I did this in I received no response. Perhaps the right people didn't see it or did and just didn't respond. No biggie I thought, perhaps the issue isn't THAT important... But there is just one problem- I still see this ringing, EE, whatever the Hell it is and it just plain sucks.
And someone PLEASE answer the following for me:
How can this be MPEG problem when I see it on VHS tapes as well as DVDs? Is this a NTSC artifact? Not when it shows up on FPs, right? And if it isn't any of these things then WTF is it??? Why is it still showing up? I'm not fond of my movies looking like videos when they should (and can) look as film like as is possible with current technology. Hey, if this is an unavoidable occurence given today's technology then I can live with it, but if it's not than its use is entirely unacceptable and should cease immediately. Period.
And come to think of it I don't recall seeing it in the theater either, now that Ted brings it up. I'll be sure to pay close attention next time...

 

[GlennH]

if this is an unavoidable occurence given today's technology then I can live with it

I agree. But I don't believe this is the case, or we would see it on just about every DVD, and the fact is that we don't. There are some very good-looking transfers out there with many high-contrast type scenes that do not exhibit this effect, at least not nearly as much as others do. So whatever it is must be avoidable.
I agree that if studios want the best quality video they need to investigate each step of the process and see where these effects are being introduced. Then see what can be done about eliminating it. Maybe better equipment, more care, whatever. As more and more of us get big-screen HDTVs or front-projection systems the more of an issue this becomes.

 

[Chris Maynard]

How can this be MPEG problem when I see it on VHS tapes as well as DVDs

Because you very well may be seeing EE on these various sources.
It could be further agrivated by SVM or too much sharpness.

 

[LawrenceK]

One of the problems mentioned in the EE guide is that they actually reduce the quality of the image when applying EE to it, and that this was the biggest problem with EE. If what we are seeing isn't EE then I suppose this is not occurring. My biggest worry with EE was not so much the halos, but that the overall image was being degraded. At least we know that this isn't happening....

 

[Cris K]

In my experience, many times plain old MPEG mosquito is misdiagnosed as Edge Enhancement.
Unfortunately- without having the disc and the studio master for side by side comparison- it may be nearly impossible to tell just by looking at the disc on a consumer grade monitor.
-cris

 

[Heinz W]

Chris, the sharpness on my Sony KV-32V26 is set almost to zero so I am reasonably certain that is not the cause. As far as the SVM, I admit that I've done no surgery to the set and that it is a possibility I'd not fully considered. I will have to look into it; if it really does help it would certainly be worth doing.
And again, if I am seeing EE then tell me WHY I'm seeing it. Is it unavoidable, yes or no? If yes then fine. If no, then why do I still see new releases so cursed?? Why aren't the studios doing anything about it?? Shouldn't each generation of authoring techniques reduce this effect to some degree??
Maybe we can tout it as a new DVD feature: inverse cel shading- put white lines on all edges...

Sorry! I'm just sick of not being able to get some straight facts about this. Peter's statement re DH:WAV SE "being in the print" or what have you seems somewhat ludicris. If that were so wouldn't that make those flaws absolutely ghastly in theatrical proportions? It would have to be awful. Can anyone confirm seeing EE on a theatrical showing of DH 3?
To me, the final proof that this a software issue is the fact that others here have seen discs where the trailer looked better than the feature??? That's just absurd. But consider, the trailer is more likely to receive less attention to QC as the feature and less likely to be overly tweaked, or EEed, or whatever.

 

[Tom J. Davis]

Rob is correct. I just went back and looked at the trailer for DH3. Much better quality than the movie and no ringing or EE or whatever the hell it is.
If this is compression artifacts why do movies like Braveheart show none? If this is the case sounds like some encoders are much more efficient than others.

 

[Lewis Besze]

When a studio exec goes down and asks the transfer people "did you use EE on this title?" do you think they would lie about it? Why would they?

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"You Hungarians always disagree"

 

[Ivan Luk]

There are setup screens on both VE and AVIA DVD's to check whether your individual setup introduces EE.
Strictly speaking, I believe that EE is not an MPEG artifact. MPEG compression does not introduce anomalies such as the halo and ringing that is a typical byproduct of the EE overuse. OTOH, mosquito noise, blocking, color mottling, etc. are MPEG compression artifacts. In fact, JPEG compression will not produce EE artifacts by itself either. However, JPEG compression can exaggerate EE artifacts.
Since Ep1 had many digitally produced frames, it is conceivable that during the transfer to film that EE would have been overused. Thus when it was time to transfer it to DVD, the EE would already be present. However, I did NOT see any noticable EE when I saw Ep1 at the theaters. And what I saw on the DVD transfer was obnoxious enough to have been easily spotted at the cineplex had it existed on the original master film element.
Bjoern's article is a veritable source for understanding and spotting EE. And it's really easy to spot once you know what to look for.
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[Kevin_M_M]

Time for you guys to clear up one quick question for a technical newbie.
All the movies on my Sony WEGA, when there is a sharp edge on a building or stripe on a shirt and the line distorts, is this edge enhancement? If not, what can I do to get rid of it?
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[John CW]

This is a problem inherant with all Sony WEGA widescreen TV's I have seen and has nothing to do the quality of the DVD.
I cannot be fixed but you can read more about it on my website here:
http://www.kv32tweak.freeuk.com
Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me DVD
Fight for the Deleted Scenes Petition [/b]
http://www.geocities.com/fwwmfight

 

[Chad Ellinger]

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/uub/...ML/028325.html
As Morgan Holly points out in this thread, many of the "edge enhancement" problems we see are actually idiosyncracies of particular MPEG encoders. Many studios are NOT deliberately using an "edge enhancement" feature.
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[Chris Maynard]

Lewis - Tell me the motivation.
Enlighten me to the process and motivation that you seem to know more than me about.
I am talking about the telecine people here.
Do you know any of these people? Because I do.
[Edited last by Chris Maynard on October 02, 2001 at 09:40 PM]

 

[John CW]

I think most engineers and execs probably think that EE is a GOOD thing... it appears to sharpen the picture to those with untrained eyes (ie 90% of the public)
~ John
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Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me DVD
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[Joel Fontenot]

Why would EE make that much difference on a 27" or smaller TV anyway?
"J6P" has been watching a very (comparetively) fuzzy image for years on VHS (even if EE was used on VHS - it doesn't do that much good).
As someone else mentioned, I doubt that "J6P" cares one way or another about something he/she does not know about anyway. It's a worthless step.
People with bigger screens don't want it because it "highlights" the edges - but in return, that means that the edges are "softer" - wouldn't that "softer" appearance be reduced with a smaller screen anyway?
Basically, these would be questions for whoever decides to use EE if it is in fact used as much as it's said to be used.
BTW, there is apparently a problem with the recent Mitsubishi RPTVs that introduce a fair amount of "ringing" in the image on it's own. Reducing the "sharpness" setting plus making changes in the service menu has been known to reduce the effect, but it is a set introduced problem - independent of the video source.
Joel
[Edited last by Joel Fontenot on October 02, 2001 at 12:20 PM]

 

[RobertR]

I think you're really on to something, Joel. There's NO justification for EE because:
JP6 couldn't care less and wouldn't notice the difference anyway.
Those of us who ARE aware and DO know the difference OBJECT to EE.
So what's the motivation?