It isn't edge enhancement...

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by LawrenceK, Sep 28, 2001.

  1. LawrenceK

    LawrenceK Stunt Coordinator

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    Almost every transfer that is put out on dvd has been knocked for having too much edge-enhancement, with a few notable exceptions. Most recently a supposedly reference quality dvd, Episode: 1, was knocked for having excessive edge enhancement by almost every review site. In a thread on this forum, Peter Staddon said that he knew for a fact that VERY little, if any, edge enhancement was used on the disc, and since the transfer was supervised by people who are very high up in THX, it seems silly that they would let something as noticeable as edge-enhancement slip by. I believe that edge-enhancement is now what we are seeing on most of these discs, and that the term is used incorrectly. Is the "ringing" associated with edge enhancement just more prevalent in some prints? Is it a problem with the compression? Is it unavoidable? It seems to me that if the majority of the prints have some degree of "ringing" to them, then it can't be a "defect" can it? Does anybody have any solid information on what causes the "ringing", how to tell if edge enhancement has been used besides spotting the ringing on high-contrast backgrounds, and if there is any way to avoid it. Thanks.
     
  2. Ryan Patterson

    Ryan Patterson Stunt Coordinator

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    I'm curious as to what "ringing" officially is. The closest thing I've seen to that would be dot-crawl on hard edges. Of course, you only get this when you use composite connectors on a low-mid range TV that doesn't have a digital comb filter. (ie. my Sony V-series circa 1996 27" TV)
    I use S-Video to watch DVDs, and have the TV calibrated using VE (ie. the sharpness is turned all the way down), but I've never seen any kind of "ringing" artifact. The only artifacts I usually see are for 4:3 downconversion.
     
  3. Ken_McAlinden

    Ken_McAlinden Producer
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  4. Dave F

    Dave F Cinematographer

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    No kidding! If you haven't seen them, don't go looking! Once you see it, it's like innocence lost. [​IMG]
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  5. Brian-W

    Brian-W Screenwriter

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    This subject has always bothered me, particularly the statement from the website listed above:
     
  6. Ryan Patterson

    Ryan Patterson Stunt Coordinator

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    Hmmm... maybe I'll give myself a break and not go to that link to see what ringing is right now. [​IMG] Ohhh, the temptation!
     
  7. GlennH

    GlennH Cinematographer

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    Brian, have you watched The Sound of Music on that 120" screen? Watch some of the early parts of the movie, and if you don't see serious ringing around Julie Andrews head when she is standing against the bright sky, then yes, you are going blind. [​IMG]
    It's like somebody took out some magic markers and drew lines around things. Very unnatural looking, and once you notice it, distracting from then on, at least to me. Clearly not something that would be there on the film. I sure hope Fox goes back and revisits that transfer some day.
     
  8. Adam Tyner

    Adam Tyner Screenwriter

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    I should probably be ashamed to say that I own this particular DVD (it was a review screener, though), but one scene in Double Take stands out as one of the only times I've ever noticed edge enhancement from a reasonable distance on my admittedly-far-from-massive 36" screen.
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  9. Mark_Wilson

    Mark_Wilson Screenwriter

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    This could be a hardware issue too. I've heard Stacey Spears talk of high frequency roll off in a lot of players that creates ringing. I think it warrants further investigation.
     
  10. Ivan Luk

    Ivan Luk Agent

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    Just previewed the DVD at the Widescreen Review facilities yesterday as a guest. It's unfortunately true--the Star Wars Episode One DVD has quite visible EE. [​IMG]
    [Edited last by Ivan Luk on October 01, 2001 at 04:05 AM]
     
  11. Roland Wandinger

    Roland Wandinger Stunt Coordinator

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    A DVD where even a blind man can see EE is the R1
    Die Hard With A Vengeance 5 Star Edition!
     
  12. Tom J. Davis

    Tom J. Davis Second Unit

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    Agreed. Die Hard with a Vengeance is one of the worst offenders I've seen. Some shots look fantastic and others equally dreadful.
    Although I haven't seen the EP1 disc yet, from a picture quality stand point it's not sounding too promising. Every single review I've read has blasted it for EE. WHY OH WHY!!
    If it isn't EE, WHAT IS IT!! This should have been *THE* reference dvd.....
    If the EP1 dvd ends up looking anything like the DH3 disc someone needs to figure out what the hell is going on here.
     
  13. Jeff Kleist

    Jeff Kleist Executive Producer

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    Peter Staddon contacted the people that did the transfer on Die Hard WAV. It is NOT edge enhancement, but part of the actual physical print. Frankly, I have a feeling that a LOT of what people are seeing as EE these days is this
    Jeff Kleist
     
  14. Philip Hamm

    Philip Hamm Lead Actor

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    This type of ringing is an MPEG artifact. The MPEG artifact looks almost identical to Edge Enhancement. I don't know how to tell the difference between the two (EE vs. MPEG2 ringing).
    The worst certified Edge Enhancement I've ever seen is on the Beatles Anthology LaserDisc set. It's awful. Let's home the eventual DVDs have the video remastered.
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  15. Rob Gillespie

    Rob Gillespie Producer

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  16. Han

    Han Second Unit

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    I'm starting to think Philip Hamm might be right. "We" may be lumping the two together a bit much lately. I'm not sure of the similarities between JPEG and MPEG compression, but I know with JPEG the more compression there is, the more ringing there is around borders of objects. And that's with no "sharpness" or edge enhancements applied. It's simply a fault of that type of lossless compression scheme. I guess when you put compression artifacts together with edge enhancements, you have double the problem.
     
  17. TedD

    TedD Supporting Actor

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    Quote It's on the print Endquote
    Boy, that's a line if I ever heard one.
    I have projected thousands of 35 mm prints, always making sure that the focus is as good as possible. I have used binoculars from a drive-in booth 250 feet away from the screen, I have worked at the Village in Boulder, the Cooper in both Denver and Minneapolis where the distance from the booth to the screen isn't much greater than the width of the screen (Deep curve Cinerama style houses). I have never ever seen halos around the edges of objects on a 35mm print.
    If I were in Peter's shoes, I would be running a full scale investigation to see where in the DVD production chain this problem originated. That means going back to the source used for the telecine, rerunning the process on a single reel at least, at both the transfer house that was used for the title and another transfer house selected for their quality with supervision at both locations.
    I would then audit the result of the telecine on a reference quality front projection system to verify if the artifacts are present or not.
    If the transfer is clean, the next step would be to follow the DVD compression and mastering process step by step, doing quality verification after every step until the issue is identified and corrected.
    Since it appears that this issue is afflicting more high profile titles (Star Wars ep 1 anyone) I think that the issue needs to be identified and corrected immediately.
    Or could it be that the studios don't want their transfers on DVD to look as good as they possibly could??? Nah......
    Ted
     
  18. Chris Maynard

    Chris Maynard Supporting Actor

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    Ted -
     
  19. cafink

    cafink Producer

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    In all seriousness, Chris, don't you think the problem needs to be addressed? I'll admit that it might not be quite as big a problem as I've seen some others make it out to be, but the fact remains that this "ringing" artifact, whatever it is, can be seen on tons of DVDs. This isn't a good thing. At best, it does nothing to help the transfer. At worst, it can render the image all but unwatchable.
    If it's being applied on purpose, then for heaven's sake, WHY? HTF videophile geeks hate it. The only person it could possibly improve the picture for is your average Joe watching DVDs on his 19" set, and I can promise you that he doesn't know what the heck Edge Enhancement is in the first place, and he doesn't care.
    If it's an unintentional artifact (of MPEG compression or whatever), then I agree that we need to discover what exactly is causing it. It may not be a conspiracy to make DVDs look worse, but it's hurting the image quality nevertheless.
     
  20. Dome Vongvises

    Dome Vongvises Lead Actor

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    Let me be the first to say, "I GIVE UP!!!" I'm being driven up the wall about EE, MPEG artifacts and whatnot. I made a thread about finally seeing EE a while back, and everybody tells me it wasn't. Really, I don't care anymore. Even the fine website couldn't educate me on the supposed evils of EE. Next thing you know, there's a new finding that Die Hard: With A Vengence really doesn't have EE.
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