is trueDD and DTS-HD worth the upgrade? (1 Viewer)

[Bmoney]

nveremind, thanks for the apology, i guess i misread it and took it the wrong way. igts why email/forums are nto an effectivve form of communication ( i am a health teacher haha)

no worries

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

After doing a little more digging on the net and playing w/ my PS3, I suspect that very many BDs w/ DD+ or DD-TrueHD tracks also come w/ a 640Kbps DD core. Seems that way w/ the ones I've tried so far, eg. Blade Runner, Harry Potter series, PotC series, Rattatouille, The Departed, etc. The PS3 seems to indicate what soundtrack it's reading for playback though it doesn't say if/when it downmixes/converts to something else like PCM 2.0, eg. Hairspray's DTS-HD/MA track, which doesn't seem to include a DTS 1.5Mbps core like a few Fox titles I've tried, eg. Rescue Dawn.

_Man_

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

I checked some of my BDs again, and looks like I was a bit mistaken that many of them had DD 640K cores (inside DD+ and Dolby TrueHD tracks). Many of them do carry DD 640K tracks, but they are not "cores", just separately selectable tracks, especially the Warner and Disney/BV titles that contain lossless PCM tracks (w/out Dolby TrueHD). A few Sony BDs I own do seem to carry DD 640K cores inside Dolby TrueHD, eg. The 5th Element, Spiderman 3.

The point remains that I have *only* noticed DD 640K tracks, not the lower bitrate variety typically on SD DVD, for all the BDs I've tried that actually carried DD 5.1 tracks. My other BDs that don't contain a DD 640K track (separately or as core) usually come w/ DTS-HD/MA and usually w/ DTS 1.5Mbps cores.

So it seems that BDs (and probably HDDs also) very often offer higher quality encodes (than SD DVD) for audio even for those who can only handle the DD/DTS combo. YMMV some of course.

_Man_

 

[Mike_J_D]

OK, just got my 3808 and finally got it calibrated correctly thanks to Chris from Audyssey. Do I hear a difference, you bet. The bird that just flew behind me from left to right agrees (Watching 3:10 to Yuma), didn't hear it last time I watched this movie in regular DD. Hell, in the opening few minutes I heard the horses riding behind the house to burn the barn down. Amazing difference; language is crystal clear, surrounds are dynamic and highly active...just amazing.

I wish I could describe what I was hearing to you better, but if you love audio than yes it is worth the money to upgrade.

I'm getting 6.1 Mbps in uncompressed audio..

Just switched to regular DD and it dropped to 640 kbps and the difference it substantial.

All this through my PS3.

 

[Bmoney]

exactly what i was lloking for!! thanks you

I have decided to wait till i move into my new house(next eyar) to upgrade the reciever. hopfully by then the prices in tech might drop a bit. I dont want to go from a 1K reciever to a 350.00(oknyo 605) to get the upgrade. so i will just wait a bit to get a 3808 or yamaha v1800

 

[Mike_J_D]

John you won't regret the upgrade. I'm actually excited about rewatching my Blu-ray movies.

 

[Bmoney]

Thanks Mike!

 

[Mike_J_D]

Your welcome

 

[Michael Reuben]

Man --

Like you, I've been doing some further research, and I need to correct some of what I said earlier. You've basically got it right. With an optical connection, the regular DD that people will get from a Blu-ray disc containing a DD+ or TrueHD track will, in most cases, be standard DD at 640kb/ps. I keep forgetting that DD+ and TrueHD are optional audio formats on Blu-ray (whereas, on HD DVD, they're mandatory and all players must be able to decode them internally). This results in somewhat different encoding when DD+ and TrueHD are used on Blu-ray discs.

In order to ensure that there's something playable through the S/PDIF output of any Blu-ray player, no matter what it's internal decoding capabilities, DD+ on Blu-ray contains a standard DD "core" much as you've described. (On HD DVD no such "core" is required, because every HD DVD player must be capable of decoding DD+ as a mandatory format.) The standard DD core is typically encoded at 640kb/ps, as you've been seeing.

The situation with TrueHD is somewhat different. As I understand it, TrueHD is not a core/extension system. Therefore, to provide compatibility, TrueHD tracks must be accompanied by a separate standard DD track, and this may or may not be listed on the Blu-ray disc's menu. Regardless of whether it's listed, the disc is mastered so that the standard track is sent to the player's S/PDIF outputs.

You know, whenever I read people in the "format war" threads talking about the importance of having one format so that we can speed up "mass acceptance" of HDM, I remember some of these incredibly obscure technical issues that trip up even us enthusiasts. Then I remember friends whose homes I visit where there's still a VCR with the clock blinking "12:00", and I just shake my head and chuckle.

M.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Aaaah... Ok. That makes sense now. Yeah, having such differences between HDM formats sure do confuse things.

But now that you point out that Dolby TrueHD doesn't actually contain the DD 640K track as a core on BDs, but the DD track could just be hidden, that makes me wonder about how I'm understanding the DTS-HD/MA situation. For instance, do the Fox titles also just have the DTS 1.5M track hidden or as actual core? And does New Line's Hairspray actually have a DTS 1.5M core even though my PS3 doesn't show it (like it shows the DD 640K and DTS 1.5M tracks, hidden or otherwise from user selection, on nearly all other BDs) or does it simply not have any DTS 1.5M track like I originally thought?

Sooooo confusing... Maybe I should just buy a new prepro/receiver and not worry about it...

_Man_

 

[Michael Reuben]

I believe (but don't hold me to it) that DTS-HD MA does have a standard DTS core.

M.

 

[gte357s]

Well, I can't really understand. I think my question is a little bit different. Is upgrading the receiver to one with DTS-HD or Dobly True HD the only way to get HD sound from BD or HD DVD? If not, what is needed from the BD or HD DVD player so that I can get HD sound on a regular non DTS-HD receiver? I don't want to throw away my receiver in order to enjoy HD sound.

 

[Chris Gerhard]

Assuming you have an amplifier with analog 5.1 inputs or 7.1 inputs, you want a player that will decode all audio formats and output analog audio with either 5.1 or 7.1 analog audio outputs. If you want both formats, Blu-ray and HD DVD then you either want a dual format player that can do it or two separate players and a switcher. For simplicity, I am going to assume you want only Blu-ray since that format has a huge advantage in the market and with lossless audio since about 70% of the Blu-ray releases use lossless audio. I think waiting a couple of months for the new Blu-ray players would be my recommendation since I have read reports that the upcoming Panasonic DMP-BD50 will handle everything but I haven't seen the official specifications from Panasonic that indicates that is so.

If your existing amplifier has some sort of HDMI audio processing, you may have other options. When asking a question like this it is always best to indicate what amplifier you are using.

Chris

 

[gte357s]

Thank you for your response. I am looking to buy a used receiver Rotel RSX 1055, and I am thinking if can get HD sound on it or not. And yes, I am thinking to get BD only. But for HDMI, I think it has to be HDMI 1.3, right?

 

[gte357s]

This link has a clear view of the back of RSX 1055. Does it has 5.1 analog input?

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...anel-large.jpg

 

[MPSAN]

Great thread! I just posted a question regarding the replacement of my Meridian 568! I have the same issue(s)...is it worth it. I am using bitstreamed Coax output from my BD30K Panny BR Player. I see lots of talk about the Integra DTC 9.8, as well.

 

[Terry St]

I'd just like to point out that full bitrate DTS (i.e. 1.5kbps) has been shown to be acoustically transparent in double blind ABX testing. (i.e. You can't tell the difference between it and uncompressed PCM) It follows that DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD won't sound any different than a full bitrate DTS track unless they're mixed differently. Full bit-rate DTS is, of course, exceedingly rare to find on DVD's. (In a library of >500 titles I have maybe 1-2 titles with full bitrate DTS) Fortunately, any Bluray or HD-DVD title with DTS-HD on it will play on existing hardware as full bit-rate DTS, so if your title has DTS-HD on it, you're not going to get any better by listening to the PCM track. (unless it's a different mix entirely) I'm not familiar with the DD side of things unfortunately. Specifically, I don't know if 640 kbps DD is acoustically transparent.

Interestingly enough, I also have an AVM20. It can be fed an analogue signal from your player and, additionally, has a bypass mode which allows you to optionally defeat all DSP processing within the unit if you happen to be extra paranoid. I've hooked my player up and have compared PCM and DTS tracks, albeit rather unscientifically. In some cases I think the PCM and DTS tracks were different mixes, but in most cases I was not able to discern any difference at all. Then again, that was what I was expecting, so YMMV.

I am now of the opinion that Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD are little more than marketing gimmicks. Bluray and HD-DVD should have stuck to a core sound format that is acoustically transparent and at least somewhat supported by existing equipment, such as full bit-rate DTS. They could have then optionally included PCM tracks for those who fancy themselves to have golden ears. There's ample space on both HD formats for uncompressed sound. There was no need to inflict two entirely new audio formats on the world.

 

[Patrick Sun]

Don't kid yourself, many of the CEs got onboard with the high-def movement just to sell us new receivers and pre/pro's that handle the new audio formats and offer HDMI capabilties. It doesn't matter if the old full-bitrate dts tracks sound as good (or almost as good as the new super-duper audio formats, where the former can be played in older receivers that can handle full-bitrate dts, marketing will tell prospective consumers differently, otherwise, why would you ever upgrade your receiver if you didn't get many audio benefits from the upgrade?

 

[Jack Gilvey]

So how is DTS pushing MA...more transparent-er?

 

[terence]

I have the 9.8 and BD30K, they complimant each other well. I'm enjoying these new HD audio formats w/ HD pic emencely! I agree some hear a big difference, others do not hear that much of a difference. Im my case i can hear the HBR audio vs. the legacy surr sound audio we have enjoyed on dvd. My vote is for the upgrade, we are living in a Hi-Definition world and i love it!