Is there good Rap? (1 Viewer)

[Mike Broadman]

Whenever someone says "it's not music," it makes me chucke, because that's what folks said about The Who, the Stones, and the Beatles back then.

As for the violence and misogyny vs PC, I think the popularity of those lyrics is because of the PC culture. It's reactionary, which is always a staple of youth. After a long day of work sucking up to bosses and clients (or school), spending all our time concerned with how we think and pleasing the establishment, it can be a release to blast an MC talkin' about keepin' it real.

I personally don't think rap lyrics, even the violent ones, are any worse than the vacuous nonsense that permeats most rock music. I don't care if Gene Simmons wants to rock 'n' roll all night and party every day, or listen to anymore sugary "love" songs, which can be more insulting (because they're patronising) than Poof-Doody talking about his bitches and hos.

But I listen to both rock and rap because I make the effort to find the real deal, what moves me.

As for good rap, folks here have offered some great suggestions. I would also point out that many whites consider lyrics by groups like Public Enemy "negative" because they emphasise the black subculture. I prefer to take the opposite view and give them credit for being socially conscious. The same could be said for Gang Starr- Guru can write some of the strongest, if simple, lyrics.

 

[Carl Johnson]

While I'm not a big Puff Daddy fan I've heard my share of his stuff and I don't remember any of his lyrics being about bitches and hos. Got any specific tracks on your mind?

 

[William Lee]

Great Rap : Check out ANY of these bands, it is true hip-hop.

Blackalicious - NIA and Blazing Arrow are great (the latter can be had for 10 bucks at best buy) (This is also Harrison Ford's favorite rap group)

Jurassic 5 - Great group, Quality Control and Power In Numbers is great

The Roots - Really amazing, touted as Hip-Hop's last band. They describe themselves as organic hip-hop jazz, and if you took out the vocals you'd have a really avant garde Jazz album. Just great stuff. They mainly play live, and there is not a single DJ or computer generated beat. Its all done with real instruments, plus any scratching comes from Rahzel the human beatbox


Check these guys out!

 

[Mikael Soderholm]

Yep, I certainly wouldn't turn Shania Twain down! (Ok, we knew that). The fact that she has 'crossed over' dosen't impress me much,

Shouldn't that be don't impress me much ?

Regarding the original question, I agree with what Mike Broadman said.

 

[Jeremy_Watson]

Kevin and Diallo: Thanks for making my point better than I probably could have.

As for the original sunject of this post, that is almost insulting, not only to people within the hip-hop industry, but to people who enjoy it. Imagine if someone had said, "Is there any good rock?" cause it all just sounds like people yelling over loud guitars.

To the statement about taking out the music, that would almost eradicate the foundation of rap music. When it began the DJs were most important, not the MCs. Look at Grandmaster Flash, DJ Jazzy Jeff (his name came first), Erik B, DJ EZ Rock and DJ Clue just for some examples.

Lastly, I'll add a few of my favs I didn't see mentioned (many already were):
Older - EPMD, Erik B & Rakim, Kool G Rap, Rob Base & DJ Eazy Rock
Newer - Aesop Rock, The Coup, Mos Def, Black Eyed Peas, Common, Fugees/Wyclef, The Pharcyde, and of course Notorious BIG

Most of this isn't happy, fun music, but it isn't meant to be. I encourage those who don't think much of the hip-hop genre to look into some of the groups mentioned in this thread if you actually want to learn something; just reading this won't do anything.

 

[James L White]

UNINTELLIGENT AND NON-CONTRIBUTORY THREAD CRASH REMOVED BY ADMIN. DO NOT REPOST.

 

[KeithH]

Perhaps my age is showing (I'm 33), but the only rap I ever liked, if one can still call it rap, is The Beastie Boys (e.g., Licensed to Ill) and Run DMC. I bought an Ice-T CD in 1990, but the title escapes me at present. I still have the CD, but I haven't touched it in years. The cover shows a guy with a shotgun in his mouth. I thought the CD was a bit amusing.

Oh, I also like Tone-Loc, but I'm not sure if anyone considers him rap anymore.

 

[Philip Hamm]

Kool Keith rules.

"Shoes and Suits / Shoes and Suits / Supreme Court"

 

[Ben LG]

I would also recommend 2pac, this is coming from someone not really fond of the whole rap genre especially with the garbage thats actually being released nowadays.

 

[pat_hamm]

I thought I might chime in with my 2 cents from a different perspective. I have been a songwriter for about 13 years, and within the past 4 or 5 I have been writing mostly rap. I can say that writing rap lyrics is about 10 times harder then writing lyrics that are meant to be sung. There's a lot to be said for people who can do it well. RUN-DMC and The Beastie Boys were my first and greatest influences, but thanks to bands like Rage Against The Machine and Kid Rock, I have incorperated lots of rock and roll into my songs.



While I can understand people who don't think that rap is a legitimate artform, I personally think it is. Of course there are artists who aren't so good, and it's a shame that success is not based more on talent. I guess that's par for the course, though.



One thing I have a problem with, though, is how the subject matter of a lot of rap is so negative. Another thing I always try to do with my music is keep it positive. Of course, that's just me. Not all artists choose to go this route, and it's not always the most appropriate route to take. A good example of this is the song "Stan", by Eminem. That song is excellent. The story that it tells is very compelling, and while I believe Eminem is a brilliant rapper, I think he would be much better if he told more stories within his songs. Much of his music from "8 Mile" takes this approach, most notably "Lose Yourself", and it works really well.



I love rap. And I love the internet for giving us a forum to bitch about it's pros/cons. Keep the opinions coming!



P.S. - And now for the shameless plug: go to pathamm.com if you want to hear some of the music I have written!

 

[Zen Butler]

James, feel free to threadfart at anytime. Thanks for the contribution.

I'm sure many of us Mike, Holadem, Kevin etc. have seen this topic beat to death. I'll have to second
Jurassic 5
The Roots (brilliant)
Nas
Common
Fugees (both Lauryn Hill and Wyclef Jean's first solo efforts were almost perfect)
Eminem (deal with it)
Rakim (one of the first deep rappers)
Public Enemy

add:
Jay-Z (don't let his materialism fool you, he has skill)
Jungle Bros.
Brand Nubian
WuTang Clan (not to be missed)
Mos Def

also don't miss the great collaboration
Method Man (WuTang)/Redman-Blackout (one of the best)

 

[chung_sotheby]

Wiliam-
Good Call on Blackalicious. One of my favorite bands out there now


Now, if any of you want some really good rap, then it behooves you to check out:

De La Soul
Tribe Called Quest
2 Pac
The Roots
Kaos
Outkast
Talib Kweli
Akrobatik
Gang Starr
The Streets
Freeway
Beastie Boys
Eminem
Pharcyde
Mos Def
Black Eyed Peas (though Elephunk is really bad)
Common (or as Common Sense)
Floetry (though they are more soul than rap)
Public Enemy
Run DMC
Jay Z
The Neptunes
NWA
Dr. Dre
Snoop Dogg
KRS One
Nas
Wu Tang
Notorious BIG
Missy Elliot

As for the (pointless and stupid) debate that rap is not an artistic form of music, I challenge anyone to listen to these following albums, one after a time all the way through, litening to the lyrics and the music, and tell me that there is no real artistic and musical merit to what each band has produced.

Tribe Called Quest - Low End Theory, Midnight Marauders
Beastie Boys - Paul's Boutique, Check your Head, Hello Nasty
Public Enemy - It Takes a Nation
The Roots - Things Fall Apart, Illadelph Halflife
De La Soul - Three Feet High, Buhloone Mind State
Pharcyde - Bizzare Ryde 2

Oh, and not liking an artistic form is not a valid way of debating whether or not such form merits being taken seriously. Even though I hate most country music with a passion, I do not go around saying that it's not music because it sucks. I think that such a dismissal is just idiotic and childish.

I think that the problem is that the only rap that 80-90% of America is exposed to is the bling-bling, pre-packaged party rap tunes whose only goal is to make the next "Now that's what I call music" compilation, eg Puffy, Ja Rule, Fabulous, etc. This is the most mindless kind of rap that there is out there, and I think that this section of rap likened to the average Michael Bay film. It is made to pummel the senses into thinking that you have to buy it, and it has little to no actual artistic merit. If one looks at most of the rock these days, I would think that one would feel that ROCK is dead. But, like rock, one has to sometimes search beneath the surface to find the really good stuff. While in rock there are underpublicized great banks like Queens of the Stone Age, Interpol, Sondre Lerch, The Strokes, Wilco, Sigur Ros, Rufus Wainwright, and Travis, in rap there are Kaos, Akrobatik, Mos Def, the Streets, Blackalicious, and the Roots, musicians that dont get as much pub because they dont cater to the Top 40 midset. And just like in rock, where there are some bands that are well publicized and still great (Red Hot Chili Peppers, Coldplay, Radiohead, and U2, there are rap artists who balance monetary and artistic success pretty well(Eminem, Jay Z, Beastie Boys, Dr Dre).

JM-$.02

 

[MikeH1]

Well said Chung. I still have a hard time liking todays rap so i will add in some great bands/albums from the late 80s.

Public Enemy - It takes a nation of millions
Eric B & Rakim - Paid In Full and Follow the Leader
Boogie Down Productions - By all means Neccessary
E.P.M.D. - Strictly Business

and of course Run DMC, Beastie Boys, 2 Live Crew, Schoolly D, M.C. Shan, and Ice T.

The Ice T disc Keith you were wondering about with the gun to the face is called "Freedom of Speech, just watch what you say" I believe released in late 1989. Personally, I never much cared for it, opting for the earlier Rhyme Pays and Power being better listens, alrthough this disc has its share of fans too.

 

[Mike Broadman]

Carl, I was being facetious. I call all of the MTV rappers "Poof-Doody," including Nelly and Ludachris (however the hell you spell that).


Wu-Tang- now there's a group I've been meaning to check out for the longest time...

 

[Tony Mirra]

Modern hip hop (mostly underground stuff) is slowly becoming the only institution providing any kind of innovation in music. There are some ingenious productions being put together and it's far more interesting than most modern rock music, especially the schlop in the mainstream.

Listen to the Roots, Dizzee Rascal, the Streets, the Majesticons, and King Geedorah among others.

And if you don't think Outkast is one of the most melodic, creative, infectious bands you've ever heard, then you aren't listening hard enough.

 

[LarryDavenport]

I don't have a lot of rap, and the vast majority I have no use for (the same goes for 80's hair bands). But some there are some great rap albums. The Beastie Boys (as much a punk band or jazz band as a rap act) and Public Enemy have been mentioned, but two albums I think are indespensible are Cypress Hill - Black Sunday and N. W. A. - Straight Out of Compton .

 

[Tommy Ceez]

CHUNG - what about 'DeLaSoul is dead' - I love 'Bitties in the BK lounge'?
Anyone who wants to see what hip hop WAS really about must listen to Boogie Down Productions, EPMD, EricB & Rakim, Run DMC, and NWA (with Ice Cube).
Anyone who wants to see what hip hop CAN BE must listen to Beastie Boys (not Licence to Ill), De La Soul, Tribe Called Quest, and Wu Tang Clan.

Its sad, I used to be a huge fan of rap when the above acts were the mainstream. Now that there is the AWFULL (bitches, bootie, moet, and mercedes benz)mainstream rap I really dont have time to check out the more underground stuff. I will try out some mentioned here.

 

[chung_sotheby]

Tommy,
Yeah, I forgot De La Soul is Dead. My b, great album

Also, a good underground Hip Hop label to look at is Definitive Jux. Some really cool stuff coming out from there.

 

[Tony-B]

I also want to throw in my suggestion for Outkast. Try listening to their song "B.O.B. (Bombs Over Baghdad)" off of their alblum Stankonia.

 

[Jeremy_Watson]

Chung,

I have to second your Def Jux recommendation. I find some of the artists from that label to be some of the most thought provoking found anywhere in music today, my favorite being Aesop Rock.