Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer? (1 Viewer)

[Ed St. Clair]

Exciting news for SD DVD.
Badd news for HD Disc (IMO).
As if the common consumer isn't confused enough!!!
And we are living in the age of cheaper is better.

 

[Steve_Pannell]

I've had mixed results with upconverting too.

It seems, in my experiences anyway, that older movies (a few from the '70s specifically) have looked better upconverted than new releases.

Anyway, if Toshiba can make SD-DVDs look better by any amount (even if it doesn't look as good as Blu-ray) then I'm all for it.

 

[Yumbo]

Apparently Ron.

Someone posted a recent Apple update file string, and it listed the new specs for the iSight.

I guess this will be after the new iPhone launches in July, and with the new OS update (Snow).
So my theory is if that is the case, BRD shouldn't be too far behind.
Especially with Panasonic (Apple's OEM) announcing new drive specs.

 

[CptGreedle]

First, the HD iSight thing sounds exciting, but I just got a new iMac this year...
Second... can't wait to hear the Apple BD announcement. I am still sure it will happen this year.
Third...

What is stopping other companies, like Sony or Denon, etc. from adopting this SAME technology? When the PS3 (best selling BD player) was first released, it could NOT upsample DVDs. However they added a patch/upgrade that added improved upsampling.
The point is, this new Toshiba SUC (super up-converting) player is using the SAME chip the PS3 has had in it for over a year now. How hard would it be for Sony to develop an upgrade to give super up-converting to DVDs on the PS3?
I can't say, but i can say it is not out of the realm of possibility.

I think right now, people KNOW that DVDs are good, but Blu-ray is better. Most people who have an HDTV intend to get HD content eventually, and up-converters are good only for their existing library. For this, I have no complaint with the technology. If they can make something to appease the new HD adopters with their old movies, great. But I am still sure that they will want BD eventually, when the prices drop or certain titles come out. It works the same way in the gaming world. The PS3 dropped its price, it started selling better. The PS3 released MGS4, it started selling better without a price drop.

However, I think Toshiba's reason behind this is a bad one. To me it is obvious Toshiba is trying to kill 2 birds with one stone... prolong DVD so they can continue to make money from it, and hurt BD so it becomes like Vinyl records.. a niche products for enthusiasts. I don't think this will happen, but they seem bent on it. (However I can not say for sure, since Japanese business culture is different from ours.) I will say that Toshiba already has egg on their face and it is looking bad for them. It would have been better to make a BD player, but instead they fight against Blu-ray. And I have already heard rumors that several large retailers will not sell the new player since HD DVD hurt them so bad. But alas it is only a rumor and nothing has real till it happens.

I will wait and see what this technology looks like and see how it compares to Blu-ray. I am expecting no better sound, and typical (or maybe better than typical) up-converting, but nothing like Blu-ray/true HD content.

 

[Adam Gregorich]

I have heard that the Toshiba will be at CEDIA so we will see what all the fuss is about in September.

 

[Jari K]

Home Media Magazine | Toshiba Holding Off on Blu-ray, Looking to Upscaling DVD Players

"..Alan Thompson, Toshiba’s European CEO, confirmed the tactic in June, telling media outlets, “At this present time we are not using Blu-ray. Blu-ray is just one of many ways that you can get HD content and is not required for accessing HD content.”

 

[Ralphie_B]

Well, that's a pretty disingenuous comment he's making, isn't it? Technically it's true, I suppose, since there's broadcast HD over-the-air and on cable/satellite, and HD-DVD does still exist for current owners. And none of those are Blu-Ray.
But he sure seems to be implying that super upconversion of DVD will rival Blu-Ray... and while I find SUC interesting on its own potential merits, I can't buy that it's a real rival to Blu-Ray.

 

[CptGreedle]

So far, they have only compared their images to standard non-up-converted DVDs. For all we know, they will look no better than a standard up-converted DVD.
I think they are trying to sell people who think up-converting DVD players are "good enough" that this is better and closer to Blu-ray.
I don't see how it is physically possible to do this, since DVDs lack the detail required. Even a painstakingly complex up-conversion program (such as Genuine Fractals, industry standard for up-converting images) can not come CLOSE to a true HD source.
By the time this is out on the market, Blu-ray will be close to the same price anyways.

 

[Joseph Bolus]

Based on what we've heard this "super-upconverting" process will actually be able to remove and/or partially mitigate MPEG-2 compression artifacts. And it will do this *before* providing the 480p to 1080p upconversion. If that information is accurate I suppose it's possible that the picture could look considerably better than a standard upconverting player.

I, for one, would welcome this kind of technology (anything to make my current DVD collection look as good as possible on HD equipment); but I would *love* to have it in a deck that can also play Blu-ray.

 

[CptGreedle]

As a professional high end Imaging Technician, the thought of a computer automating a clean up of that type scares me. It can be "trained" to look for signs of artifacts and noise and compression and anything else... but what it sees might very well NOT be an artifact at all. Even the best filters and programs and scripts need to be tweaked by hand to get the best output.
The only image processing I allow my computer to do requires no touching up of the image itself (like file type conversion or up-sampling, etc).
Letting your DVD player look for errors and fix them, then up-convert them sounds like a risky move. I suspect that the player would be more likely to clean something that is not an error than something that is. It might catch all the artifacts, but what about other details that might not be artifacts at all? And what about HOW it removes these artifacts?

Smells fishy to me. I don't like technology that smells like fish.

 

[Aaron Silverman]

I do. But only if it was just used to catch a fish. Something tasty, like a red snapper.

 

[Ken_McAlinden]

As an owner of several standard definition DVDs for which no high definition counterpart is in the near, or, in some cases, forseeable future, I cannot understand anyone who would object to an improved upscaler that optimizes the experience of watching these titles.

I completely understand people who may find the "Blu Ray killer" marketing hook objectionable. I do too. That being said, if Toshiba truly has come up with a better upscaler, I am not going to root against the technology itself. If it works, license the improved upscaling software to a BD player manufacturer and everybody will be happy.

Regards,

 

[Alfonso_M]

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[Paul Kemp]

I have just seen this thread, very intriguing.

I can be quoted on another thread as commenting that I feel we reached the limits of the MPEG-2 conversion process before we reached the limits of NTSC/PAL video formats. Some of the data and reports I have read on Toshiba's proposal suggest, as somebody in this thread has themelves pointed out, that this 'miracle working' process takes place prior to any manipulation of the video data itself (scaling/deinterlacing etc).

As an engineer who works quite a lot with with processing (amongst other things) I have to agree with CptGreedle - no matter how advanced the processing that Toshiba employ is, it is still going to be based on indiscriminate algorithms which are likely to confuse encoding artefacts with real detail and 'throw the baby out with the bath water', in a manner of speaking.

However this is just speculation as none of us truly know what Toshiba have under their hats. There are some general assumptions that can be made though.

This processing technique, whatever it might be, we know is Cell based. Since Toshiba has operated at a considerable loss on HD-DVD, they are unlikely to tread the same path as Sony and market this technology at bargain bin prices. If this technology works - and I remain pessimistic as to whether or not it will - then it will have to operate at a profit as Toshiba can't afford to have it any other way at the moment.

Also, as somebody else said earlier on in the thread, Garbage In = Garbage Out. If we assume this technology is released, and works well, it will only work well with transfers which are already of a good quality. That is the conundrum with digital based distribution mediums - once information is taken away it cannot be easily retrieved, if at all.

 

[Scooter]

Historically, nearly every format has seen some improvement over the original spec. VHS..S-VHS..Beta...B1S..ED Beta....HiFi Audio for the tape formats...CX Analog Stereo for Laser and CED...Digital Audio for Laser...AC3 for Laser..CAV...CLV Speeds..yadda yadda...

Even cassette tape saw advancements to improve performance..Dolby..Dolby C..DBX..Metal Cassette tape...

Broadcast TV..MTS Stereo...Much greater use of lines of resolution.

Frankly, STD DVD is overdue for some real tweeks either on the disc or in playback or both. We had some gimmicks like the SuperBit series and improvements over the original specs and encoding, but there hasn't been an overhaul as it were.

Once the S-Video connector was introduced, I noticed a significant improvement over what Beta and VHS looked like compared to composite. So if Tosh has some magic up their sleeves that will offer the same kinda thing for existing DVD, I just see it a logical step for this format as we saw for the aforementioned technologies.

Edited to Add: Vinyl....Quad (SQ and Discrete)..Direct To Disc Recording methods...DBX/CX Encoding of LP's.

 

[Adam Gregorich]

I thought S-Video was only better if the playback device had better comb filtering than the display device. If the display was better it was better to use a composite cable.

 

[Ken_McAlinden]

This was the case with Laserdisc since the video was optically encoded in composite format. For SVHS and for DVD, I believe S-Video is always better than composite.

Regards,

 

[Scooter]

On my Sony VCR's..Beta..SVHS..Hi8...the SVideo ALWAYS looked better. And Sony had a feature where I could essentially see what was coming directly off the heads of the machine, as opposed to proccessed video.

With my C-Band, the intro of an S output on the digital channels made a HUGE difference. Laser was the format at issue with things, depended on the model and the manufacturer of your TV/Monitor.

 

[DeeF]

I've read this entire thread, and I have a few ideas — please take with grain of salt.

I don't think Toshiba (or any other company) is very interested in what equipment/technology people already own. They're more interested in what people will buy in future. What most people will buy in future are DVDs of current movies, i.e., WALL-E or Mamma Mia.

Current DVDs can be "upconverted" but there is a limitation, to be sure.

I think this "new" technology is a revamped hybrid disk. Some here have called it "super DVD."

The super DVD will look great, and play perfectly in your old DVD player of any brand. It will cost the same as a regular DVD, and perhaps Toshiba will convince the studios not to put out regular DVDs at all, since this will be as good.

But if you buy a new Toshiba player, you will get interactive menus and better picture and sound. And soon enough, other companies like Sony will have to introduce this new kind of player.

If Toshiba successfully introduces this disk, it will definitely destroy the Blu Ray market.

 

[Jonathan Kaye]

I'll have a double of whatever you're drinking, please.

Seriously, the best Toshiba can manage is to bring out a DVD player that has the same renowned upconverting ability of their HD DVD players. Anything else would require more money thrown at it than they can afford, given what they've spent on the format war.