Is SACD just a vehicle to price-gouge audio ethusiasts? (1 Viewer)

[Rachael B]

I think I was feeling particularly cynical when I started this thread this morning. I just feel really let down by Sony. I never thought this format would take off like a rocket but Sony has done so very little to make it a sucess. Personally, I'd like to see the format do some better, which would mean more software releases and atleast, proably, a little lower disc prices. Sony needs to take some Viagra or something or get some of that PIXIE DUST...!

The point is that the format shouldn't be doing this poorly. I aggree the contention that DVD-A's plight is a similar parallel. I think $13.99 discs could significantly improve the health of either format. I don't mind terribly much be price-gouged a little some of the time and I am ending up with a superior product....but I reserve the right to be grouchy about it from time to time!.

I'm suprised nobody has suggsted that Sony has now decided to use SACD mainly as a tool to attempt to gain marketshare in the DVD player market. But, maybe they just don't have enough lower priced players out to even be realistic about that angle? They don't seem to be doing a good job of that either, me thinks.

I quess I just feel peeved to witness marketing this inept, same for DVD-A too. Remember back to some other SACD threads like Keith's Circuit City'd SACD kiosk has a CD player in it. Think how really nonchalant Sony's effort has been. Every continued round of Sony single layer, non-hybrid discs and now Universal's too peeve me off too....

 

[andrew markworthy]

the difference is that DSD sounds like music and most audiophiles at the time thought CD did not! Those with good turntables knew the truth immediately.

To be honest, I gave up listening to the opinions of audiophiles (for which read - people with enough money to buy expensive equipment and then sneer at other people) years ago. They've been shown up in so many controlled studies that I treat their opinions with the cynicism they deserve.

 

[Andrew W]

You only overlook the biggest capital costs, production of the original material (recording, mixing, mastering plus art development) and advertising, which runs in the millions per release.

This is billed by the label back to the artist. It is eventually paid back out of royalties (with interest.) Thus this is not a valid part of a "where does the money go" pie chart.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

To be honest, I gave up listening to the opinions of audiophiles (for which read - people with enough money to buy expensive equipment and then sneer at other people) years ago.

To blanketly label all of us who want better sonics on our music as equipment snobs is completely unfair. It really shows Andrew how closed your mind really is.
Many of us have gone out of our way to show how very expensive equipment trickles down to affordable high end gear that creates great sonics. Look at Adcom, Rotel, entry level products of high end names.
In addition this post does not offer any value to the thread.

 

[KeithH]

Lee, the Sony DVP-NS315 and 'NS715, which are available everywhere for $200 or less do not play SACDs. The 'NS755V is more expensive and not as readily available. The fact remains that Sony makes cheaper progressive-scan players that are more readily available than the 'NS755V. And as I have said, Sony currently offer no SACD-capable DVD changers. Note how Sony has not yet replaced the 'NC650V.
The 'NS755V is a step in the right direction, but Sony has not yet made a full-throttled effort to get SACD to everyone who buys a Sony DVD player. And Sony seems to have abandoned the audio-only segment of SACD hardware. Maybe Sony will announce new models at CES, but I am not holding my breath.
Regarding $25 SACDs, sure audio enthusiasts who represent the niche clientele that Analogue Productions is targeting will pay a premium for great-sounding discs. However, the connection that I feel you continue to fail to make is how SACD is being marketed to the masses. The average music buyer is not going to pay $25 for a music disc. Many DVDs cost less than $25, and to the average shopper, music should not cost more than a DVD. Price aside, a point I am laboring to make is that the Analogue Production SACDs aren't being marketed to the masses, which is a big part of the problem. Having CCR on SACD is great...for people like us. However, the average shopper won't find these SACDs. The mass merchants don't sell them. The average shopper does not even know that Elusive Disc, Acoustic Sounds, and Music Direct even exist. They shop at Circuit City and Best Buy. They shop at Amazon, which may have the CCR SACDs. Even if Amazon does have the CCR SACDs, I don't see the average buyer paying $25 for a disc.
Lee, you need to try to understand the state of SACD from the masses perspective. I don't think you do that. Many of your arguments in favor of SACD cite successes that are only known by a very small percentage of music buying public.

 

[MathewM]

Regarding market growth: I read somewhere that vinyl, as miniscule as it is still out sells both SACD and DVD-A.
I agree on the surface that Audiophiles, much like other expensive hobbies (ie stamp collectors) caters to the snobby, elitist crowd. However bubbling underneath that surface there are a lot of people like myself who do not have or wish to spend the exuberent amounts of money to get high quality music reproduction.
Here are some alternatives. First off, you can put together a new, inexpensive, analog based system for around $1500.
For the source:
http://www.soundstage.com/vinyl/vinyl200009.htm
For the amplification:
http://norh.com/news.html
scroll down about halfway to the SE18. Built in phono section.
Speakers:
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.p...oni&1045265252
I couldn't find a direct link for the company. Supposedly excellent for the money. I am in no way affiliated with this sale.
Or you can buy used off of Audiogon. A lot of rich man's audiophile gear goes for half of it's new cost.
Besides setup, the biggest problem with vinyl is finding software in good condition. So much of it was abused. I find that classical can be found often in near mint condition for cheap.
With my next DVD player purchase, I'll look into the high rez thing.
Unitl then I'm keeping myself happy with my small, inexpensive vinyl collection and my large expensive cd collection. Should be the other way around but like I said good condition vinyl is a rarity (at least around here). I haven't ordered too much on line yet. Probably in the future, though at much more expensive prices.

 

[andrew markworthy]

It really shows Andrew how closed your mind really is.

Touched a nerve there! Amazing, isn't it, that as soon as a clique is attacked, the first reaction is that critics must have a closed mind.

Look, face facts:

(a) good hi-fi is very expensive; anyone who talks about their hi-fi system is automatically making a statement about how much money they've got.
(b) the marginal returns as you go up the hi-fi ladder are diminishing
(c) nearly all hi-fi reviews are done with the reviewers knowing the equipment they're reviewing, and the equipment is supplied by the manufacturers. Try that in a behavioural science experiment and try to get the paper published!

I am *not* denying that good hi-fi is a delight. What I am saying is that as soon as someone uses the word 'audiophile' the word 'snob' appears in not only my mind but a large proportion of the population's.

To return to the original thread - if I ever buy into SACD/DVD-A it'll be based on whether the product is likely to last and not what audiophiles tell me to think.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

What I am saying is that as soon as someone uses the word 'audiophile' the word 'snob' appears in not only my mind but a large proportion of the population's.

Well, they need to get out and meet more people. In my local audio club, only a handful of people are snobs. Most just want to hear good music. Maybe things are different in the United Kingdom...

 

[KeithH]

Lee, for people like us, $49 is nothing to be concerned about in the cost of a component. However, to many people, it is. When I was at a Circuit City store on Black Friday, I saw many, many people scarfing up the cheapest DVD players, which were quite a bit cheaper than $249. When there are many, many DVD players to choose from for under $200, including some Sony models, that are also far more readily available than the 'NS755V, it stands to reason that Sony still has not fully tapped into the budget market with SACD. The fact remains that Sony itself offers a few cheaper non-SACD DVD players that are far more readily available in brick-and-mortar stores than the 'NS755V. I will give you that Sony is putting SACD into a number of home-theater-in-a-box systems, but many non-SACD systems are considerably cheaper.

Lee said:

I find Super Audio CDs in Atlanta at Tower, Circuit City, Borders and Best Buy. That captures a lot of foot traffic.

Of the stores you listed, only Tower Records sells the $25 Analogue Productions SACDs, which were the discs I was referring to in my comment about limited availability. Second of all, the only SACDs I have ever seen at Borders stores across the country are the Stones remasters, which are being marketed as CDs, and the Mike Oldfield Tubular Bells SACD. Furthermore, I only saw one copy of Tubular Bells at each Borders store, and that was when the disc first came out. I haven't seen the Tubular Bells SACD in a store in a long time. This brings up an obvious problem. Most stores have either a very limited selection of SACDs or no SACDs at all.

Circuit City has practically given up on restocking SACDs. Outside of the Stones remasters, which again are being marketed as CDs, the only new SACD I have seen at Circuit City stores since April is the Bruce Springsteen live set. That's it. Otherwise, they have the same old Sony titles in the kiosks -- Carole King Tapestry, Celine Dion All the Way...A Decade of Song, Stevie Ray Vaughan and Double Trouble Couldn't Stand the Weather, Mary Chapin Carpenter time*sex*love, Billie Holiday Lady in Satin, Roger Waters Live, Boston Boston, etc.

For many months, Best Buy stores in my area stopped getting in new SACDs. Their SACD kiosks simply had the same old titles much like Circuit City. Then Best Buy started getting in two copies of each new Sony title about three months ago (e.g., James Taylor JT and Janis Joplin Cheap Thrills). The problem is that they do not restock these titles. If you don't get one of the two copies, you don't get one there.

The other problem, as has been discussed in the past, is that the SACD kiosks are often buried in the back of stores. I have seen this at every Best Buy I have ever visited. The kiosks are not located anywhere near the CD department. Most music shoppers probably never see the SACD kiosks in their travels through Best Buy. I just don't feel that Sony has done an effective job in marketing SACD to the masses. They just haven't done it.

 

[Rachael B]

Atta boy Keith! Sony's lethargic marketing effort could hardly be called poor, lousy, or bad because those words aren't strong enough. Furthermore, Sony and now Universal are entirely unresponsive to consumer desires. They surely read these forums and know that we want hybrid discs and flaut not doing it in our faces. I'd call that anti-marketing or counter-marketing!
I'm 'auh thinkin' I know the petty reason they won't put out hybrids. What do'es you'ins' thinks?
I don't think snob and audiophile automatically belong in the same sentence. I think that's become a movie stereotype, or somethin'? People have discarded so much great stereo equipment in favour of gizmo laden surround recievers, it ain't funny. My record player and pre-amp were close to free. If you scope around there are deals to be had on primative stereo equipment. Add a good set of speakers and you're good to go. If anything, it's way more expensive to become a home theatre snob! All those speakers and stuff you need!
Happy holidays guyz!

 

[KeithH]

Rachael said:

They surely read these forums and know that we want hybrid discs and flaut not doing it in our faces.

Do they read these forums? I wonder.
Sony: If you are reading, get your act together!

 

[Mike Broadman]

To return to the original thread - if I ever buy into SACD/DVD-A it'll be based on whether the product is likely to last and not what audiophiles tell me to think.

The formats "last" as long as I own the player and discs, regardless of what comes out in the future.

Kieth- yes, the CCR discs are marketed for hobbyists. So? Just because it's rock music doesn't mean that it has to be marketed towards everybody. These SACDs are geared for audio enthusiasts who also like CCR. There are enough of those to support the $25 price tag and excellent quality.

Some of you folks are continuing to repeat what I feel is a crucial mistake: criticising companies for not doing something properly when they're not even trying or claiming to do it it all. This is unnecessary- there are plenty real things to criticise already.

 

[KeithH]

Mike, I never said that Sony had any intention of marketing SACD full-throttle to the masses. However, there are some indications that the mass market is on Sony's radar. For example, we do have some SACDs at Best Buy and Circuit City, and we do have cheaper SACD players available today than two years ago. However, if it is true that Sony is interested in gaining mass acceptance with SACD, it could be doing a lot more to help its cause.
Most of my posts have been in response to others' contentions that SACD has been a marketing success and that SACD is bringing in big-name artists that will gain the attention of the masses. I have to contest these views. SACD has been a marketing success with a very limited audience -- the music enthusiast, audiophile, etc. Furthermore, many of the SACDs of big-name artists are not widely available, so most music buyers are not aware that they exist.
Regarding the CCR SACDs, I just feel that $25 is too much to pay for an in-print disc, especially when many other hybrid SACDs are available for much less. I just received the Alison Krauss + Union Station New Favorite hybrid SACD from circuitcity.com for $13.99 delivered. Great price! Now that is on the extreme low end of the scale (circuitcity.com has other titles priced that low or even $12.99), but there are many hybrid SACDs priced in between $13.99 and $25. Telarc and Chesky hybrid SACDs used to sell for $25, but these record labels dropped the price to $20. These discs can be purchased for less than $20 in some places. At this point, $25 is just too much for an SACD.
I will buy the CCR SACDs (I already own one), but I will buy them one at a time and look for sales. I could go out right now and buy the four remaining CCR SACDs at $25 each and not be strapped, but I guess I am highly principled (read: cheap ) when it comes to the price of music. If the CCR SACDs were available for $15 each, I'd own them all by now. With all the music I want to own, $25 discs are not a priority, especially when I have loads of CCR on CD.
I live in Delaware, which offers tax-free shopping. Not surprisingly, I like doing as much shopping here as possible. Unfortunately, with the limited marketing we are seeing with the CCR SACDs, I can't find them here. I can travel to a Tower Records store in New Jersey or Philly and, with tax, pay $25 per disc (with the current 10%-off sale). Alternatively, I can buy online and pay the shipping charge. In some cases, the shipping fee is ridiculous. Music Direct has a minimum shipping charge of $5. So, if I order just one CCR SACD, I pay $5 for shipping and, therefore, $30 for the disc. That's too much for an in-print disc, in my opinion.
O.K., so I am cheap.

 

[Mike Broadman]

Ok, now we're on the same page. $25 is silly when there are cheaper discs.

Unfortunately, AP's SACDs are my most desired titles- besides CCR, they have the best jazz titles.

I'm buying the CCR discs slowly, too, but I don't even have any CDs, so it is a bit of a higher priority for me- I'm building my CCR library from scratch with the SACDs.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

$25 is a fine price if your target market is those (like me) who has often paid $25+ on audiophile releases like MFSL gold CDs, MFSL vinyl, DCC gold, CBS 'Super Bitmap' gold, Rykodisc Au20, and so on.

$25 is a horrid price if your target is the mass market and you are trying to replace CD.

 

[Mike Broadman]

Agreed. The debate seems to be which is happening. Given the scale and marketing, it is clear to me it is the former.

 

[Philip Hamm]

What's all the fuss about Sony not putting SACD in their cheap players? Why bother IMO. The entry level user is more interested in MP3 compatability, and IMO that desire is going to exclude SACD interest. Does Panasonic put DVD-A in all their entry level players? Heck, no, and rightly so.

What is nice is that somebody like me with interest in good sound but shallow pockets can get a nice SACD compatible player for $249 list (less discounted). Heck, I got my DVP-NS500V for $111 on closeout. If I wanted a new player I could get one for $250. I'm the low end of the target market which I believe is not so much audiophiles as it is people who really care about audio. I bought the occasional "audiophile" brand CD in the past and now I buy the occasional SACD and DVD-A.

The premium price is worth it for both formats, as it was for LaserDisc.

Personally I don't think there's anything to complain about with either format and how they're being handled by their owners. The market is small, the people who want this kind of product are going to find it.

 

[Rachael B]

Phillip, I think the potential market for SACD is bigger than you think but maybe stille not huge. My brother-in-law, not particularly an audiophile, bought a player. My vet asked me which format was doing better just recently. I think a better music format has potential, as long as it's backwardly compatiable with CD.

Keith, I think Analogue produtions needs to get their price down to $20 or less. I think $20 + is a real barrier in a great many people's minds. It is in mine. I've stille bought some of their discs but....

Phillip, the marketers of SACD are doing too much to insure it can't blossom out, me thinks. Your parallel to LD is a good one but I think it has more potential. Best holiday wishes guyz!

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Your parallel to LD is a good one

I am not sure about this, I think it is better. I am a big laserdisc collector but stopped collecting in 1999 as I got more into DVDs but I have an impressive Criterion collection of great classic film.
With laserdisc, the problem was very, very high cost at $40-50 per double set and up. Even deals were around $25-35 per set. Also, the inconvenience of switching platters was a major bummer-not to mention storage issues. So it was no surprise that after over ten years, there were only a few million LD players sold.
With Super Audio, we are already selling a few million (1 million in Europe alone) players and its just been three years. So I think the adoption rate is a multiple of what LD was. Also, the cost of a laserdisc player rarely dipped during those ten years below $500. At $200, it is much easier to get into Super Audio.
I don't know if mass adoption will occur, but I do think it is likely that SACD will offer its advantages to a much larger niche than laserdisc.
So I agree overall with Rachael, this format has more potential...

 

[Al B. C]

Gee! What do you mean by we?
You absolutely positive you're not on the payroll?