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is it true that bright sound has better imaging than warm sound (1 Viewer)

Sihan Goi

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Nov 2, 2001
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Since low frequencies are generally thought to be non-directional, I'd say it does have a slight, indirect effect on imaging and soundstage, but isn't a large factor.
 
W

Will

While low frequencies are in general non-directional I have heard there are exceptions to that rule, where directionality can be determined. Your two ears may hear different phases of the same low frequency signal since your two ears are separated by your skull. And the phase difference may contain directionality information, as I understand it. Also, some say you can detect low frequency directionality when the low frequency source moves, relative to you. For example, the low rumble when a train moves nearby. The frequency changes slightly, which is a doppler effect. The doppler effect is well known but normally associated mostly with higher frequencies.
 

Craig_Kg

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Feb 25, 2002
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A speaker that preserves phase through well controlled crossovers and time aligned drivers can have great imaging without being bright.
 
W

Will

Preserving correct phase may be quite complicated with multiple speakers. Phase interference among speakers can cause anything from doubling to cancellation of sound waves, as I understand it.
 

Aslam Imran

Second Unit
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Mar 1, 2002
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And Will, to add to your statement, phase interference is above all a function of speaker placement and room acoustics if I am correct. Am I right?
 

Lee Scoggins

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I haven't made anyone mad for a while (that I know of), so here goes. Short-duration listening tests to determine differences / preferences are irrelevant (blind or otherwise).
I agree. One must listen to equipment for lengths of time to understand its true character. That is why reviewers breakin equipment and listen over weeks if they are any good.
Imaging and soundstage are two different things I believe based on my experience in the studio. There things that one can do which affect one and not the other.
As far as expensive equipment goes, one generally DOES get better overall sound and more precise imaging as one spends more money. HOWEVER, there are some outstanding bargains to be had out there like Audible Illusions preamps, Maggie 1.6s, and so on. As far as a Yamaha integrated amp beating a Pass Labs - doubtful...Pass Labs makes some of the best solid state. IMHO it beats Levinson, Krell, Jeff Rowland, based on my personal experience. The gentlemen who did not properly identify the amps may have been untrained listeners, had poor associated equipment (low rez), etc. I would be very hesitant to make generalizations about Pass products based on this one story.
Bright or warm systems depend primarily on HF and upper midrange accuracy and resolution. They have nothing directly connected to imaging.
Just my two cents. :)
Lee
 

Saurav

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Feb 15, 2001
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The gentlemen who did not properly identify the amps may have been untrained listeners, had poor associated equipment (low rez), etc. I would be very hesitant to make generalizations about Pass products based on this one story.
Did you read the linked article? The gentleman in question was a dealer/salesman who had spent a long time talking about how the Pass amp was so good. The test was done in his home, in his system. That's the first thing I checked, the associated equipment, and I definitely cannot call it poor.
I'm usually on the subjectivist side of things, but on this issue, please read the Google link provided, I think it is quite interesting. Also, reading up on the specific details of that test is better than speculating about them, IMO.
Here's the link once again, in case anyone missed it:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Pa...ust.net&rnum=1
 
W

Will

And Will, to add to your statement, phase interference is above all a function of speaker placement and room acoustics if I am correct. Am I right?

Yes. And as you probably know, phase can be affected by crossover circuits, too, especially passive analog crossovers.
 

chung

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Feb 23, 2002
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Lee:

As far as a Yamaha integrated amp beating a Pass Labs - doubtful...Pass Labs makes some of the best solid state.
Please understand that no one concluded that the "Yamaha integrated amp beat the Pass monoblocks". The consensus at the end of the trial was that those amplifiers sounded amazingly alike. Certainly the differences, if any existed, were very subtle.
 

Craig_Kg

Supporting Actor
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Feb 25, 2002
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Yes. And as you probably know, phase can be affected by crossover circuits, too, especially passive analog crossovers.
I did say it required well controlled crossovers in the speakers to preserve phase.

Experimenting with positioning of speakers for best imaging is one of the basics for setting up HT and stereo, I would have thought and would apply to all speakers, good or bad. It is just that a good speaker will respond with a greater improvement with good positioning. Of course, good imaging usually requires a speaker be spaced from walls while the boundary reinforcement effect helps bass so it all varies as to what is the best approach.

Phase cancellation and reinforcement from speakers will usually only be a problem for bass as that is where multiple speakers are most likely to be producing the same signal. The other big cause of phase cancellation and reinforcement is in a center speaker with a MTM arrangement (as most do). The horizontal combing effect can be quite noticable as you change your seating position, especially if the crossover point is quite high.
 

Dennis B

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Nov 1, 2001
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Two months ago I used ETF5 to observe how speaker/listener positioning (including the sub) influenced the overall frequency response in my room, and I though imaging became a little better after I move them to the best comination.
Last month I began playing with some absorber panels in my room, placing them strategically to reduce early reflections. Boy, did it make a difference. Imaging became much more precise and now the soundstage is deeper. I can't believe what it did for my 'poor' 602s.
Now I'm gonna start messing with some diffusors in the ceiling. :D
Somebody already said how important room acoustics is at the beginning of this thread, and how much it is usually overlooked in favor of electronics. By no means I think we should all now go Sonex-crazy and forget about all the improvements speakers, amps, etc can make, but I just wanted to share my experience of how much difference it made to the average mid-fi eqmt (B&W, Rotel, Marantz) owner like me.
 

Larry B

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Saurav:
I would like to add a word or two about the link you provided. To my knowledge, this "test" was never published in a peer-reviewed journal, and it involved one subject (or was it two?). Could you imagine a pharmaceutical company submitting to the FDA the results of a clinical trial involving 1 or 2 individuals? Laughable, to say the least!
All we can safely conclude from this test is that one subject, in one particular setting, was unable to distinguish between the two pieces of equipment. In my opinion, no other conclusions are justified.
Larry
 

Miguel Stanic

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Dec 26, 1998
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You guys must be all experts because I would not even know the difference between a warm and a bright sound. Damn, I should get the wax cleaned out of my ears. I do, however, know whether I like what I hear or not. Whether it's warm or bright sounding I do not know and probably don't care. Can someone please explain how to characterize/detect these sounds. I'm ignorant here and I'd just like to know.
 

Saurav

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Feb 15, 2001
Messages
2,174
I do, however, know whether I like what I hear or not. Whether it's warm or bright sounding I do not know and probably don't care.
Consider yourself incredibly lucky. This hobby is full of people who are apparently very good at analyzing equipment, and pretty poor at enjoying music. I know I used to be like that, and I had to consciously make an effort to stop listening for warmth/brightness/soundstage/imaging/all that stuff, and just go with the flow of the music. And believe me, it wasn't easy, and the fact that I'm an engineer made it that much harder, because I'm so used to operating with the analytical side of my brain.

That's one reason why I like to take my wife (a graphic designer/artist) along with me when auditioning equipment. She loosely understands and totally doesn't care for why my system has a phono preamp, a preamp and 3 separate amps, but her observations when listening to music on different systems are often quite eye-opening.
 

Aslam Imran

Second Unit
Joined
Mar 1, 2002
Messages
286
Consider yourself incredibly lucky. This hobby is full of people who are apparently very good at analyzing equipment, and pretty poor at enjoying music. I know I used to be like that, and I had to consciously make an effort to stop listening for warmth/brightness/soundstage/imaging/all that stuff, and just go with the flow of the music. And believe me, it wasn't easy, and the fact that I'm an engineer made it that much harder, because I'm so used to operating with the analytical side of my brain.
We are in the same boat Saurav.
 

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