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Is it time to talk about coronavirus? (1 Viewer)

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RMajidi

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I dearly hope I’m wrong in my assessment of the painful course this will take. An early development and distribution of a vaccine will obviously make the world of difference, but failing that this is what I see.

Those nations that have seen a glimmer of hope in reducing the infection rate are actively experimenting with models that trade-off lives against the economy. These models work by attaching a dollar figure to each individual life, so that the scenarios can uniformly be viewed in purely monetary terms. [in Australia, five to ten million dollars is the range of figures being attached to a human life]

Consider that all nations are tapping into their finite reserves - that is if they have any to begin with- to sustain their populace in lockdown. Those that lift restrictions know that significant deaths will ensue. Those that don’t know that it’s only a matter of time before those reserves are depleted, and significant debt, breakdown of infrastructure and poverty follow.

This life vs economy trade-off will play out everywhere, not just in North America. It’s already leading to paralysis in some places, whilst in others it will lead to further outbreaks of death and devastation, as experimentation begins to rollback restrictions to favour the economy.

I can’t think of any crisis in recorded history that has pitted humanity in this way. The initial phase has needed to be national and regional isolation and a focus on independence. For some nations this has been possible, due to the availability of a sufficient range of essential resources. However, the world is not a collection of independent and insulated states. This is bound to have a cascade effect as its devastating effects in many parts of the world begin to take hold and nations are faced with the reality that borders will need to remain closed for extended durations. This will have massive cascade effects across all nations, just as the outbreak itself was an international cascading nightmare.

Unless an effective vaccine is developed and its global distribution reasonably managed in a relatively short timeframe, then the systems and rules of international governance, trade and finance will not see incremental change, but will start disintegrating altogether.

It’s a bleak picture I’m painting, but believe it or not I don’t have a grim outlook. I actually think that this will in the long run force a much greater international collaboration to get us through this crisis and that those bonds, which currently look like they are melting away at a rapid rate, will be strengthened and hold when their imperative need becomes unmistakably clear.

Of course I could be totally wrong in my understanding of all this.
 
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DaveF

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Those nations that have seen a glimmer of hope in reducing the infection rate are actively experimenting with models that trade-off lives against the economy. These models work by attaching a dollar figure to each individual life, so that the scenarios can uniformly be viewed in purely monetary terms. [in Australia, five to ten million dollars is the range of figures being attached to a human life]
Can you share links regarding this? I can't find info on Australia doing anything different than the rest of the world, in terms of social quarantining, closing shops, and massive national stimulus / bailout funding.
 

RMajidi

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Can you share links regarding this?

Some links you requested regarding the processes in Australia:

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2020...e-cost-business-morrison/12130190?pfmredir=sm


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04...ovid19-modelling-experts-on-response/12128950

Dave, your question had me backtracking through my browser’s history over the multitude of news reports, opinion pieces and scientific articles I’ve read on this and related topics recently.

I’m including here some additional links relating to the modelling process, including analysis and predictions re US and China:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...e-lives-and-lockdown-costs-put-price-covid-19


https://bmcresnotes.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13104-020-05044-y

The figure of $5 million to $10 million per human life was not in the Australian model, as I incorrectly mentioned in my last post (the Oz figure was $4 million for a child and adjusted for age, as reported in the first link above). The 5 to 10 million life valuation was actually in a report by the Harvard University Center for Ethics, as follows:

https://ethics.harvard.edu/when-can-we-go-out

https://ethics.harvard.edu/files/ce...itepaper_2_-_when_can_we_go_out_3.25.20_1.pdf


I can't find info on Australia doing anything different than the rest of the world, in terms of social quarantining, closing shops, and massive national stimulus / bailout funding.

Yes, and that is precisely my point. Australia is facing the exact same predicament as every other country, and is currently tackling it the same way.

For now, the control measures here have reduced the viral spread significantly, as is the case in New Zealand. However, the country is on pause and the same concerns about relaxing restrictions to get things going again, versus risking further deadly outbreaks are being agonised over here as everywhere else.

As a major food producer and with many other plentiful natural resources, Australia is on the surface capable of a degree of self-sufficiency, greater than the norm. However, it is subject to all the same rules of global finance and dependency on international trade; so it cannot maintain this lockdown position indefinitely.

Its geographical situation as a remote island continent is not reflected in its reality. It is very much dependent on international ties, especially in its trade relationships with China.
 
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DaveF

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Maybe it’s semantics, but the assertion “Those nations that have seen a glimmer of hope in reducing the infection rate are actively experimenting with models that trade-off lives against the economy“ isn’t accurate.


Various individuals and groups are running models or writing op-eds on what should be done. Some good, some not.

But, to my knowledge, no nation is yet explicitly basing coronavirus policy on a human-life cost basis. Everyone is still going for theIr best how to flatten the curve, save as many people as possible, figure out the money later.
 

RMajidi

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Maybe it’s semantics, but the assertion “Those nations that have seen a glimmer of hope in reducing the infection rate are actively experimenting with models that trade-off lives against the economy“ isn’t accurate.

But, to my knowledge, no nation is yet explicitly basing coronavirus policy on a human-life cost basis. Everyone is still going for theIr best how to flatten the curve, save as many people as possible, figure out the money later.

The first news article I linked above, in response to your request, explicitly states:

“...the choice between death on an unimaginable scale or wholesale economic destruction, all boiled down into competing dollar signs ...these decisions, cruel and calculating, are being made across the globe as armies of actuaries, economists, epidemiologists and bureaucrats crunch the numbers for politicians on how best to find a balance between how many they are prepared to let die and the ongoing cost to those who will survive. It's called modelling”​


My comment was consistent with this, so I’m not sure why you consider it inaccurate. Whether you find the news report reliable or not is another matter.

Western Australia and South Australia have ‘flattened the curve’, and talk here now is about how and when the economy can be cranked up again while minimising risks of further outbreaks.

Western Australia in particular has put in place very strict restraints that coupled with early action have proven effective. In addition to self-isolation etc., it has not only stopped international travel, but also travel from other Australian states. Movement within WA has also been limited - the state divided into several regions, whose boundaries may not be crossed. Hefty fines are applicable to all transgressions.

The Australian Prime Minister has repeatedly said that all decisions are made in light of ‘data model’ projections. What he and other leaders and health experts have understandably omitted is that an element of these data models is the human cost valuation, as that would no doubt further alarm an already freaked-out populace.
 
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Francois Caron

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Consider that all nations are tapping into their finite reserves - that is if they have any to begin with- to sustain their populace in lockdown. Those that lift restrictions know that significant deaths will ensue. Those that don’t know that it’s only a matter of time before those reserves are depleted, and significant debt, breakdown of infrastructure and poverty follow.

This life vs economy trade-off will play out everywhere, not just in North America. It’s already leading to paralysis in some places, whilst in others it will lead to further outbreaks of death and devastation, as experimentation begins to rollback restrictions to favour the economy.

I'm glad I'm Canadian during this pandemic. We have an abundance of natural resources and an adequate food supply to sustain us for a very long time if necessary. Yes, the country will go through a period of short term pain, but as we're now realising with our supply shortages of PPE gear, depending on foreign nations for most of our manufactured goods isn't a viable solution during an emergency. We may start seeing a decent amount of manufacturing come back to Canada after all of this is over.
 

TJPC

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Plus it has been pointed out that although the masks are manufactured in other countries, the raw materials mostly come from CND.
 

Francois Caron

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The USA will definitely have to bring back manufacturing to their country. The recent hijacking of shipments of PPE gear destined for other countries has soured trade relationships between the USA and other nations including Canada. If this happens again, the USA could face an international trade embargo.
 

TJPC

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In the future I am sure this will go back to normal. We all want the hero USA of the 1940s. Before they were officially at war, new planes and equipment were put at the border with Canada out west. Canadians would throw ropes around them and steal them by dragging them North.
 

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