Is it possible that Wally Szczerbiak is better than Allen Iverson?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Brian Perry, Feb 6, 2002.

  1. Brian Perry

    Brian Perry Cinematographer

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    I'm a stats kind of guy, and after last night's game in which Iverson shot 22% from the floor, I was wondering whether Iverson is extremely overrated.

    Do stats mean anything in basketball? I think they do; we're just not taught to look at the important ones. While Iverson scores 30 per game, it's because he's throwing the ball up continously. When you compare his overall stats to Wally Szczerbiak of the Timberwolves, I think a case can be made that Wally helps his team more. His FG% is .451 (vs. Iverson's .393) and rebounds are higher. Iverson's steals are more than offset by his turnovers.

    Iverson may be fun to watch sometimes, but I think there are many other shooting guards I'd rather have. Am I focusing too much on the numbers? Can someone sell me on Iverson?
     
  2. Michael Caicedo

    Michael Caicedo Second Unit

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    Nope. Wally can't put a team on his back and take them to the NBA finals. I am not really a stats type of guy (can't keep track of that stuff anymore), but I know that Iverson does a lot more than what shows up on the stat sheet. For example, break down defenses allowing teammates to get open and such. Pound per pound , inch by inch, he's the best in the game today.
    Follow up will be posted by Scott Weinberg [​IMG]
     
  3. Bill Balcziak

    Bill Balcziak Supporting Actor

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  4. Jeff_A

    Jeff_A Screenwriter

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  5. Paul Jenkins

    Paul Jenkins Supporting Actor

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    Szczerbiak can't hold a candle to Iverson. That said, there are better much better players in the league than Iverson, he is overrated by many.
    List of players better, IMHO, more valuable to their teams, and that I would take over Iverson for any team...
    -> Jordan
    -> Kobe
    -> Kidd
    -> Shaq
    -> Francis
    -> Nowitski
    -> Nash
    -> McGrady
    -> Pierce
    -> Duncan
    -> Garnett
    Iverson brings energy and the will to win to his team. However, he is shooting UNDER 40% for the year, under 28% from 3-pt land and averages almost 4 TOs a game. He makes up a bit with 2.7 steals.
    As I said, IMHO, he is one of the more overrated players in the game given his numbers (and numbers DO mean something, even in the NBA [​IMG])
     
  6. Carlo Medina

    Carlo Medina Executive Producer

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    I still don't get it. If you average 30 points a game by taking 35 shots, I don't think that's very good. Lots of the NBA stars could average 30 points if they took that many shots.

    I think people make a big deal about AI carrying his team because, quite frankly, Philly needs to be carried.

    Remember when the great Lakers and Celtics teams of the 80's would have 5 people in double digits every night? So you would take AI over Bird, Magic, and all those guys?

    Now I'm not saying anything about Wally, just saying that for the number of shots he takes (and don't forget that if AI is fouled, that doesn't count as an official shot, so he probably takes in the order of 40-50 actual shots a night) his numbers are where they should be.
     
  7. Jon_B

    Jon_B Screenwriter

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  8. David Lawson

    David Lawson Screenwriter

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    Wally can put a team on his back and take them to the Sweet Sixteen, though. Go, Redskins!...er, Redhawks. [​IMG]
     
  9. Brian Perry

    Brian Perry Cinematographer

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    I think there's a fine line between "putting a team on your back" and being a ball hog. What's debatable is whether or not he needs to take that many shots because of the quality of his supporting staff.
     
  10. PatrickM

    PatrickM Screenwriter

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  12. Carlo Medina

    Carlo Medina Executive Producer

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  13. MichaelG

    MichaelG Second Unit

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  14. Carlo Medina

    Carlo Medina Executive Producer

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    Here's some box scores:

    ALLEN IVERSON

    Win vs. Houston: 58 pts on 21/42 & 14/14 from the line (so potentially 7 extra shots taken unless it was an "and one")

    Loss vs. Detroit: 26 pts on 7/31 & 11/14 from the line (another potential 7 shots taken)

    Loss vs. Toronto: 36 pts on 11/27 & 13/14 from the line

    Win vs. Sixers: 25 pts on 9/30 & 5/5 from the line

    Those last 3 are the most recent games, I stuck that first game in there to show his highest scoring game this year (even in that one he took 42, potentially 49 shots). In each of the other 3 games the Sixers took between 77-80 shots, so he's taking over 1/3, almost 1/2 of the teams shots.
     
  15. Carlo Medina

    Carlo Medina Executive Producer

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  16. MichaelG

    MichaelG Second Unit

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    I don't know exactly what Brown has said this year, in last years playoffs though he said that AI needed to take more shots for them to win. When the guy did take less shots they got cleaned up, when he took the majority of the shots they were in the game, just like the series against Toronto. The Sixers just don't have any other consistent options besides Iverson. If Kobe was on the Sixers instead of AI I guarantee he would take as many shots and get hacked just as bad, but how would he do? From what I remember the Lakers don't have a great record when Shaq is out, so Kobe can't be carrying them too much.

    I have no idea how they actually mark the score card for FGA, but it does seem weird. It doesn't seem like they actually count a missed FGA when you are hacked, even though it's in the rules
     
  17. Carlo Medina

    Carlo Medina Executive Producer

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    I clicked on your link, Michael, and I may have an explanation.

    On the top of that page, it says "RULE NO. 4-DEFINITIONS" so I think that is a page of definitions - not guidelines on how the official stats are kept.

    For example, the statement about the ball not having to leave the hands to constitute as a shot attempt? That's probably for the refs to say a foul was "in the act of shooting" even if the ball doesn't leave the players hands - i.e. Shaq getting bearhugged in the paint w/ the Hack-A-Shaq technique.

    Just my take.

    Honestly, Stu Lantz says it all the time on radio here in Lakerland (that a missed shot doesn't count against shooting % if the shooter was fouled) that he would have been corrected by one of the millions of listeners who tune in.
     
  18. PatrickM

    PatrickM Screenwriter

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    Well, if they don't count a shot that doesn't go in because of a foul as a FGA then they've changed the way they keep stats in basketball.

    The definitions are what determine the stats so the definition of a FGA should be how the official scorer determines a FGA. The part about a FGA not having to leave a persons hands is normal. If you try a FGA and Shaq comes in a puts his big mitts on it for a block while its still in your hands he gets credited with a block and of course you can't be credited with a block unless there was a FGA.

    Patrick
     
  19. Jon_B

    Jon_B Screenwriter

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    I've always thought that a missed shot because of foul was counted as a fga. But you guys are telling me that it's not? Hmm..

    If you look at the last seven days of stats for th t-wolves you would think that Wally is their franchise player. What gives? I've had Garnett on my fantasy team. He was doing good the last couple weeks. Now he seems to be in a funk. In the T-wolves/Blazers game he only got 14, 12 and 7. Wally got 30, 6 and 5 with seven minutes less playing time.

    As for Kobe winning without Shaq....He got 38 and 8 with 8 turnovers against the bulls for a loss.

    I think that his size (6'8" vs 6'0") would/does give him an advantage over Iverson at the same position. If he were to trade places with Iverson, Philly might have a few more wins because of the size advantage. But that's just it, you have to look at how "small" Iverson is and how hard he works to get all those attempts. I think he is one of the biggest hustlers in the nba. He really works for every shot.
     
  20. Brian Perry

    Brian Perry Cinematographer

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    When you are fouled in the act of shooting, the shot does not count as an attempt unless it goes in.
     

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