Is 720p for DVD worth it?

Discussion in 'Displays' started by KenKeith, Jan 29, 2004.

  1. KenKeith

    KenKeith Extra

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    I just bought a 65" Mitsubishi WS HDTV w/ Built in Tuner
    and a Sony 5-Disc Progessive DVD Player
    but I was wondering whether I'll be missing out on much by not picking up a TV and DVD player with 720p inputs/outputs instead. Any opinions?

    Also, does anyone have any insight on the quality of these two products? I'm planning on using it mostly for DVDs and some OTA HDTV broadcasts... too poor for digital cable or satellite.

    Thanks for the advice
     
  2. DuWayne

    DuWayne Stunt Coordinator

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    1. We do know that the DVD you are refering to won't do 720p...right?

    2. For $200 more, I think it is worth it.
     
  3. KenKeith

    KenKeith Extra

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    I think both the TV and DVD player won't support 720p... I'm just wondering if that's something I should be concerned about... is the quality that much better?
     
  4. Stephen Tu

    Stephen Tu Screenwriter

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    The only thing lack of 720p input really prevents you from doing is getting full res on some Xbox games that support it.

    DVD is stored natively as 480i, easily converted to 480p. Scaling the latter to 720p really doesn't make much difference.
     
  5. KenKeith

    KenKeith Extra

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    That's EXACTLY what I wanted to hear Stephen... I don't have an Xbox and I'm mainly concerned about losing quality on DVDs. You've made my day :)
     
  6. Benson R

    Benson R Supporting Actor

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    I tend to disagree. My first impulse is yes, dvd has a limited resolution and 720p or 1080i can't improve on something stored at 480i. But I just got my vesa adapter and definetly noticed a decent inrease in detail using the 1080i output of the liteon 2001 compared to the 480p output.

    My projector is the x1 which has to downconvert the 1080i output, but the difference was unmistakeable. I know some people will think I'm just percieving extra detail because I think I should, but trust me I am the biggest skeptic.

    I dont believe if high end cables, shielding, power conditioners or many of the other tweaks out there. So take my experience for what its worth. Also if you look in Audio Video sources you will see many other people very happy with their 1080i/720p dvd players and hdtv compatible displays who say their is a big difference.
     
  7. Stephen Tu

    Stephen Tu Screenwriter

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    I think that most of those who are seeing an improvement with the scaling DVD players are using digital projectors which have to scale anyway to their native resolution, and get the improvement from better scaler in the player & also DVI connection removing an analog processing stage. I don't think these things would have much effect on a CRT based rear projector like the Mitsubishi which has native 480p scanning. And even if it did, surely one would want to scale to 1080i anyway, which the Mits does support. There aren't any current CRT rear projection models that actually display at 720p; they all convert to 1080i even when accepting 720p as input. Scaling to 720p so that your TV can convert again to 1080i doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
     
  8. John S

    John S Producer

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    In my case, I think it would be very beneficial these days for my situation.

    I have a 4:3 set with native widescreen mode that is only available for 1080i sources. I would think such a player that could do this out the component video out would be extremely beneficial for my 1.78:1 movies and wider.

    As it exists now, using 480p from a DVD player has trade offs....

    I love the DCDi processing, but my 4:3 set locks into full when a 480p signal is displayed so I have to set the player for a 4:3 set.

    It does seem to do an anamorphic squeeze on widescreen movies when I send it 480i by component video and let the TV do the progressive scan, but then I get no DCDi processing. Catch22, that could easily be defeated by a DVD player that could give me 1080i out the component video but perform the DCDi Progressive and pulldown before the scaling, this would allow me to set the DVD player as if I had a native 16:9 TV.
     
  9. DuWayne

    DuWayne Stunt Coordinator

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    I would have to disagree also...

    With the release of some HD-DVD's, I noticed huge differences in picture detail when played in my 480p (with componet) DVD player that is hooked up to my CRT display; Rather than my HD-DVD Player (with DVI) hooked up to my LCD Z2.

    I say this, after comparing even Standard DVDs. Now, I am aware of the fact that thers is a digital to analog conversion with componet, but the difference is more apparent with "Once Upon a Time in Mexico" (HD) than say "DareDevil."

    With the tests that I have done, I've proved (to myself at least) that a HD-DVD Player does a better job at converting the 480i DVD to HD (rather 1080i or 720p) than a display of what ever sorts. This is really true when using componet cables, due to the set trying to convert to 720p or 1080i with information already loss due to the digita -to- analog conversion on the transport.

    I had another point but forgot while posting [​IMG]
     
  10. DuWayne

    DuWayne Stunt Coordinator

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    Oh, remembered other point...

    I (me myself and I) tend to see Rainbow effects and Macroblocking on native 1080i display that 720p ones. This is more noticable during fast moving busy scenes. This could very well be a nil issue, due to the fact that 1080i or any interlaced resolution can very well have issues with fast moving busy scenes (macroblocking) vs. 720p or other progressive resolutions.
     
  11. Stephen Tu

    Stephen Tu Screenwriter

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    I think you guys are comparing apples to oranges. KenKeith is getting a widescreen CRT RPTV, native 480p/1080i scanning. IMO 720p input is a non-issue on this type of set, if you aren't using Xbox or HTPC. 480p is fine for DVD, if you felt scaling improved things you would use 1080i output, not 720p, as no current CRT RPTVs are displaying using 720p scan rate.

    It's a different matter entirely if he is considering a digital LCD/DLP front projector (or rear projector) for which you guys are touting the advantages of scaling DVD players (and I have no argument with that, for digital displays). But then many other factors come into play besides just the scaling, like cost, screen size, control of ambient lighting in the room, black levels, etc, if he wants to change the type of display he wants to get.

    I also wouldn't call them "HD-DVD" players. True HD-DVD players based on AOD won't be out for awhile. These are "upscaling DVD players" in my book.
     
  12. DuWayne

    DuWayne Stunt Coordinator

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    They are called HD-Players because they can put out a HD signal (720p/1080i). Future "True HD-Players", when it is broken down to a common denominator, is only the ability to read blue-laser encoded DVDs.

    Now the real question is, "Will they ever come out?" Due to the fact that the forum whats to maintain HD-DVD instead of blue-laser encoded DVDs. The fight is still on between Hollywood (and partners of such) and the forum.
     
  13. Shane Martin

    Shane Martin Producer

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    Ken,
    Since you have a 1080I set and a set that won't do 720 native, you'd want to either stick with what you have(which I wouldn't) and or replace it with a 720p/1080i dvd player. From every report I've read, upconverting dvd to 1080i or 720p(whichever your TV supports), DOES produce a better picture.

    One player offhand that does that is the Samsung HD931. Personally I'd head down to Best Buy and snag one then compare back and forth with your current player and decide for yourself then return which one you don't like. I assume you have a return policy on the Sony if that is the case right?
    I'm willing to bet you will be returning the Sony if that is the case. The Sony has the nasty chroma bug(check out Hometheaterhifi for more details) and isn't regarded as a great player(though the new ES Sony is well regarded).

    You'll of course need to pick up a DVI cable as well to make this work correctly.

    BTW, It's good to see other Tulsa HT guys hanging around these forums.
     
  14. Stephen Tu

    Stephen Tu Screenwriter

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    Are these reports on CRT based displays with both 480p & 1080i modes? Everything I've read suggests that the better picture is mainly on digital displays that have to scale to their native res, or CRTs that have to scale to 540p and don't have good scalers.
     
  15. DuWayne

    DuWayne Stunt Coordinator

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    So, my question is: "Terminator 2 Extream Edition" and "Once Upon a Time in Mexico" would be considered what? "OUaTiM" was shot in HD from start to finish. Also Mastered in HD. Both play in a HD931. But more important, take advantage of these high resolution DVDs. "OUaTiM" is def. not SD Upscaling like most "Superbit", so is there still HD content there?

    To tell you the truth, it all boils down to what looks good to you. Weather its "True HD" or SD-Upscale. A great Picture is a great Picture, regaurdless of which. I think the consenses here is, 1080i source with a 1080i Display and a 720p source with a 720p Display will look betterthan its alternitive.
     
  16. Stephen Tu

    Stephen Tu Screenwriter

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    Terminator 2 Extreme Edition would qualify in my book as a red laser HD-DVD because of its inclusion of the WMV HD transfer. But the Samsung HD931 doesn't play that WMV version; it plays the standard DVD transfer on the same disc. It is not playing HD; it is upconverted SD just like other DVDs on that machine, albeit this one is a good high bit-rate transfer. But the extra resolution in the WMV version lost in the SD version isn't regained just because you upscale. You need a PC or possibly the upcoming Bravo D3 or some newer model from Samsung to play the HD version.

    For "Once Upon a Time in Mexico", AFAIK there is no HD DVD version available; it was shot with HD digital cameras but the DVD is just a standard DVD transfer. The movie qualifies as HD, but the DVD is just standard. Most film DVDs are mastered in HD and downconverted for DVD, it's just that this particular film was shot directly on HD rather than on film, so you are skipping the telecine step and have the different look of video vs. film. Doesn't qualify the DVD as HD though.


    Certainly. But I don't think a 480i source scaled to 1080i on a CRT device will necessarily look any better than deinterlaced to 480p & displayed at 480p.
     
  17. DuWayne

    DuWayne Stunt Coordinator

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    I would agree with what you stated above about the DVDs. But to keep the conversation to what IS available today, my point was that the 931 does a better job at putting out a "HD like" image with a DVD scaled down to 480i/p from HD than with standard film scaled DVDs. I look at it as: It is a hell of a lot more work to get a great 720p picture from a "scaled" image from a 480i film scaled DVD, than from one scaled from HD to to 480i/p. Hence the reason I would choose HD over the alternative.

    Face it, the only reason we need a new standard of HD DVDs is due mainly to the fact the 1080i/720p content can't fit on todays DVDs. So reguardless of what you have to buy to "properly" view HD on DVDs, YES it is worth the extra money in the long run.

    As far as the whole 480i thing and CRTs, thats for someone else to talk to. I can't phantom doing anything but digital for now on. [​IMG]
     
  18. Stephen Tu

    Stephen Tu Screenwriter

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    Sure, one should buy HD-DVD players/discs when they are actually available. But there's nothing to buy now but upscaling players, and although these are likely an improvement on digital displays, they aren't all that necessary on a CRT set. What would you spend extra money on?
     
  19. DuWayne

    DuWayne Stunt Coordinator

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    I don't know how many other ways to put this, but I will try one more time. Garbage in , garbage out. Upscaling or re-encoding a "Great" picture WILL look better than doing the same with a "Good" picture. If you blew up a picture taken in 1940 and then blew up a picture taken on a digital camera in 2004, the later WILL look better.

    If you owned a 931 and switched between the different resolutions (480i/p, 720p, 1080i) you will see a diference in picture quality. Even between standard 480i film transfers and those shot purly digital. It a combination out Source and native res display.

    Going back to the ORIGINAL question, AGAIN, yes it is worth getting a 720p Display and 720p DVD Source. Damn what you can buy in the future, its about getting the better picture now. No one asked about CRT.
     
  20. nolesrule

    nolesrule Producer

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    The original post for this thread was in regards to a CRT-based RPTV and whther or not he should exchange it for something that handles 720p.

    In regards to DVDs, you might as well upconvert to 1080i if you are going to upconvert at all, because it doesn't really make much of a difference which one you will upconvert to. The person who said you only need a native 720p display if you are using something that is native to 720p and can't be easily upconverted (like the X-box) as opposed to 720p that can be converted (like ESPNHD on a cable box) is spot-on.
     

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