Is 480i to 1080i better than 480p to 1080i ?

Discussion in 'Playback Devices' started by anthony_b, Oct 16, 2003.

  1. anthony_b

    anthony_b Screenwriter

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    I currently have a 480i interlaced player with an HDTV that "upconverts everything" to 1080i. My question is, if I feed it a 480p signal would the TV do "extra" processing to bring it back/up to 1080i interlaced ?....I'm considering getting a progressive scan player but I don't want to just waste my money. I'm very happy with the video display from my TV with the interlaced player, I was just wondering if the progressive would be of any benefit all since the TV will show it at 1080i anyway.
     
  2. David Judah

    David Judah Screenwriter

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    Are you sure it upconverts a progressive signal too?

    If so, then I'm inclined to say the least amount of conversions is probably going to be best, but you never know for sure until you try it.

    DJ
     
  3. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Screenwriter

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    On my Toshiba 46H83, the picture is clearly sharper when I feed a 480i signal to the TV, versus 480p from the DVD player and either 540p of 1080i conversion by the TV.
     
  4. Sean^M

    Sean^M Stunt Coordinator

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    my personal opinion on this is that any time you "upconvert" anything, all you're doing is adding data that wasn't in the original source material, be it upconverting audio to "96 or 192KHz" or upconverting video to 1080i.
    end result.. garbage in = garbage out.
    If the source is only 480i at best, what do you really hope to gain, trying to make it 1080i? That's like taking an mp3 and trying to get original CD source resolution from it.. all you can do is add back to the source what was never there to begin with, and in so doing, destroy the original quality.

    The only way I'd ever bother upconverting would be with something like a Feroudja line quadrupler, but I'm not about to drop $25,000+ on one of those for an RPTV, either.

    My advice is to look at each result, converted or not, and see what looks the best to your eyes.
    again, just my two cents.
     
  5. anthony_b

    anthony_b Screenwriter

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    Sean, I know were you're coming from with the analogy, but I would need to purchase a unit to compare. I'd like to know if anyone has gone through this, or if I'm missing anything. In refrence to "garbage in and garbage out" the 480p would be better "garbage in" than 480i ?..[​IMG]
     
  6. Sean^M

    Sean^M Stunt Coordinator

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    yeah by no means is 480P "garbage" of course.. 480P is the native resolution for current DVD format.
    that's 60 progressive frames per second, which is twice that of an interlaced 60 fields per second for 480i (interlaced).
    480P is a noticeable improvement over 480i with a good DVD player (chipset) and a 480i capable display.
    taking 480-anything up to 1080i is where you start adding data that wasn't in the original source material, and this, much like the "sharpness" adjustment on television sets, is considered questionable by many as to if it's a "good" thing.
    My Onkyo receiver can upsample audio sources from 48 to 96, but I never saw a point to that unless it was for recording, and the input signal had to be a specific bitrate or something.

    Mind you, most of the real gurus here will have much better information for you than I can offer.
     
  7. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Screenwriter

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  8. anthony_b

    anthony_b Screenwriter

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    Is there any advantage of converting a 480p to 1080i over a 480i to 1080i ?
     
  9. JeremyFr

    JeremyFr Supporting Actor

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  10. Sean^M

    Sean^M Stunt Coordinator

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    mine has a Feroudja DCDi chipset. I'm not overly concerned. My television has a pretty good line doubler internally on top of that.. but I did a fair amount of research before I bought anything.


    now if I could just figure out how to afford the MartinLogan Odesseys and the Krell KSA-250 I want.. lol
     
  11. anthony_b

    anthony_b Screenwriter

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    Is it true that no HDTV ready unit can upconvert
    DVD signals thru the component inputs to 1080i ?..this is due to DVD forum standards ?
     
  12. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Screenwriter

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  13. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    Sean, line doubling(video processing) can provide a significant increase in picture quality. Not because it's pulling new picture detail out of thin air, but because the higher resolution you run, the more scanlines you get closely packed together, thus your picture is much more seamless. The negative is that you can double/triple/quadrouple to a set that can't resolve that, you get scanline overlap, and your picture will soften.

    You can only do so much to DVD to make it look better than it is, but the difference between 480p and processed video at 720p, 960p, or any resolution around there is VERY significant.

    It is not analagous to upsampling audio, the benefits are very significant indeed, and it doesn't take a 30K processor to realize those benefits.

    As for this specific example, I do not know. taking 480i, doubling in the DVD player, then sending it to the set, i don't know if the set will convert that to 1080i, or whether you'd want to go back to interlaced video. You should play around with these combinations and see what yields a better picture, or perhaps someone with a similar setup will chime in.
     
  14. Sean^M

    Sean^M Stunt Coordinator

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    I realize that the increase in scanlines helps, but, as I said, much like using the "sharpness" control on a television, you're adding "false" data to the original source, which many feel degrades the end result.
    It's all personal opinion I suppose, and comes down to what you feel looks the best to you.

    I use the 960i line doubling on my widescreen as well as the progressive output of my RP82, but again, it's personal preference. I was merely pointing out the differences for the original question asked.
     
  15. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    I see where you're coming from, but it's not really the same thing. Sharpness control, and EE very much accentuates certain freqeuncies and adds degrading artifacts to the picture if overdone. You're comparing two quite different things.

    Video processing, however, in relation to especially CRT-based technologies is VERY beneficial, and I don't think you could find anyone who would chose un-processed video over doubled/tripled etc video in such a setup. Now, OVER-processing the video, and feeding too many lines (again in relation to crt projection displays (RPTVs, fp crts) WILL sacrifice sharpness as the scan lines overlap. The added resolution is not at all degrading if done with a high-quality processor or computer. Now, comparing processed video, with the native 480i DVD is WAY WAY better, but you can see the weakness of the processing because it can't ADD or create any new detail from what is already there, by comparing it with true hi-def material, which is even better. Just so that others are clear, that's all.
     
  16. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Screenwriter

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