Ipod's Dirty Secret video (1 Viewer)

[ThomasC]

Inferior? Most hardly not. But, some people are really picky about segue times between songs, and the iPod supposedly doesn't have a very good buffer rate which makes the gaps between songs very noticeable, whereas the Rio Karma supposedly has gapless song changes. Plus, most of the competition offers their players with comparible storage space to the iPod for cheaper. It's not that the iPod is inferior in the least, it's just more expensive.

 

[MarkHastings]

There is no doubt that EVERY player out there has its drawbacks as well as its pluses.

It just seems that most PC-Nazis like to find any fault they can with an Apple product and then use it to berate Apple and make it sound like their products are inferior to everyone elses. :rolleyes

As an iPod and Creative owner, both worked well for what I need them to. It's just, at this point, the iPod is working better for me than the Creaive. Who knows, this may change in the future, but I wouldn't say that the Creative Players are crap because I have so many issues with them. They worked great for me for many years.

 

[Rob Gardiner]

Mark,


Apple's product isn't inferior to everyone else's, but it IS inferior to the Rio Karma, if gapless playback is an issue. I present Exhibit A.

Now, if every CD in your collection consists of completely self-contained songs, I understand why this would not be an issue for you. But in my case, in addition to the many live albums and soundtrack recordings, I listen to a great many studio albums by artists who craft a continuous 45-75 minute work, rather than a collection of separate songs.

It does not surprise me in the least that the gentleman on this forum (whose name escapes me) with the Frank Zappa signature considers the Rio Karma to be the only portable music player worthy of his consideration.

Would you buy a DVD player that introduced a second-long gap at each chapter stop in a film? People are always complaining about poorly placed layer changes. It seems that this is a legitimate complaint when watching movies. Why not for music?

I don't know if you were referring to me directly with your comment, but I don't think anyone deserves to be called a "Nazi" for offering legitimate criticism of an overpriced product!

I just did a little research and discovered that the Rio Karma cannot currently be mounted as a hard drive. That would be a disadvantage. But for me, gapless playback is more important, and I will make my choice based on those features that are most important to me.

Apple products are not inferior to everyone else's, but they are like designer jeans. You must pay a premium for a brand name that carries "prestige".

 

[Vince Maskeeper]

Well... not really. The only thing I listen to that would maybe be that way is concerts (rarely) and I usually merge it into one track anyway, as randomization or jumping around is the opposite of the point, so tracks are pointless.

But for my use, this little pause has never become an issue-- or in the rare cases it came up, it wasn't enough to take me out of the music listening. it sounds like this is a much more critical issue for you than for me.

I don't like frank zappa, so there you go. If you love zappa, don't buy an ipod (as odd as that sounds, as I would assume zappa would love the idea of the ipod specifically)... beyond that- I think it's a great product.

-V

 

[Ted Lee]

thx for that link vince..i'm gonna check it out. i think it may be easier when i just want to manage my songs.

i don't mind having itunes installed, since it lets me browse albums to see if i'm gonna like it...but it is a pain to load just to xfer songs.

 

[Ted Todorov]

This is such a canard -- repeating it constantly isn't going to make it true. Anytime you start comparing apples to apples (sorry for the turn of phrase) you begin to see that comparable products from other manufacturers are if anything more expensive. In the case of the iPod vs. Rio Karma which you are recommending in your post, the 40GB iPod lists for $399, the 40GB Rio Karma lists for $599!!! 800 Stereo.com sells it for $449, the cheapest I could find on line.

Now please tell me again whose products are overpriced!

Ted

P.S. I wasn't the one using the term "PC-Nazi", and wouldn't say it myself -- I won't even say "Apple basher", especially if you are willing to reconsider your assertion on Apple's prices.

 

[Rob Gardiner]

Ted,

I was referring to the 20 gig models. I wasn't aware that Rio came in a 40 gig model. It must be brand new. I agree that the 40 gig Rio costs too much right now, but check back in a few months. My comment still stands re: 20 gigs.

However, in my opinion, any portable music player that doesn't provide the same performance as a Discman (i.e. introducing gaps between songs) is overpriced at any price.

 

[Ken Chan]

Because there's hardly any support for Ogg Vorbis (yet)? Having seen the light, are you using it?

 

[MarkHastings]

That's where most of the biased opinions get their start. They perceive that Apple is some sort of designer label, when it's not.

Apple products aren't overpriced...they are expensive. The difference being they are worth what you pay. Their compatibility speaks volumes over others.

iPods are supported on a Mac and a PC, so that means you only need to buy an iPod and that's it. Since my Jukebox only works with a PC (and, in my case, only with a Creative sound card), I had to seek an alternative player for my Mac. In fact, I had to seek an alternative player for my PC (without the Creative card)

So even though the Jukebox was cheaper, I had to spend twice as much to get the compatibility with the Mac, whereas if I had the iPod to begin with, I would have saved $400 in the long run.

I hardly think that scenario makes the iPod "over-priced". The compatibility (with Mac and PC) is what you are paying for. If you don't need the Mac compatibility, that's fine, but you need to factor that into the price before saying it's "over-priced" because you can't compare a Mac/PC compatible product with a PC (only) product.

 

[Rob Gardiner]

Ted,

To be fair, not even www.rioaudio.com lists 40 gig Karmas yet. Hence my unfamiliarity. Electronics always cost more immediately after release.

Ken,

I've been doing research last night and this morning, so to answer your question literally, the answer is no, I haven't re-encoded my CD collection yet. But I'm still doing research. Still, I have yet to find a rigorous test (such as the ABX testing done by the members of the hydrogenaudio forums) that did NOT conclude that LAME APS VBR MP3s (notice how I qualified the term MP3) provide transparency, i.e. sound quality indistinguishable from the original to the naked ear. BTW the Rio Karma supports OGG just fine. In fact, in a user poll on a Rio fansite forum, codec support and gapless playback were the #1 and #2 reasons why users chose the Karma.

Mark,

Maybe I should have been more clear, but I think any variation of the Nazi term is inappropriate for one who uses constructive criticism. My specific complaints about the Ipod are the gaps and the price (20 GB model only). The filmmakers' complaints were about the battery life and lack of a replacement policy. Since they bought an Ipod in the first place, I don't think they had pre-existing bias against the company. I agree there is a lot of zealotry out there that takes on a near-religious fervor. I would never characterize Vince as a "Mac zealot", but it warms my cockles whenever a happy Apple user admits that Apple products may not be for everyone.


For the 5% of the population using Macs, I agree this is an issue. But like I've said, I make my own purchase decisions based on the features that matter to me, and Mac compatability is not one of them. I had assumed, given the number of Pink Floyd fans on this board (to name one example), that gapless playback would be a highly valued feature. Frankly, I'm surprised that so many are willing to go without it.

In any case, I want everyone to know that I practice virtually NO brand loyalty (except perhaps to the Criterion Collection ) I accept or reject a product based on its merits. If the next firmware upgrade gives the Ipod gapless playback, it would immediately end up on my short list of players under consideration.

 

[Jim_F]

*sigh* I'm the oddball again. I love my PC, love Frank Zappa, love my iPod.

My usage is not typical, though. Most of the time I use it at work with an FM transmitter (iTrip) and the AC adapter. I almost never play albums, pretty much always shuffle tunes. Where a gapless album side is important to me, I splice it with CoolEdit.

I'm glad we're all happy with our respective players. When I bought my 3G last year, the competition was just catching up in terms of capacity. Physical size and ease of operation were no contest IMHO.

If I were shopping today, I'd have to look at more players, I suppose, but my iPod is only 2/3 full with my entire music colletion on it. Besides, I figure I have a minimum of 6 months left on my battery.

 

[MarkHastings]

Sorry for any inappropriateness. The term has been used throughout the industry for so many years, that I figured its relevance to Nazis was non-existent.


On the topic of 128k MP3's vs. 128k AAC's...I was just listening to my iPod on the way home and heard a song (for the first time in AAC) that sounded brand new to me. The MP3 version never replicated the soft strings (at the beginning of this particular song), but the AAC did. It caught me off guard because I never knew there were strings in this song (because I had always listened to the MP3 version).

And as far as audio gaps...I only use my iPod (and used my Creative Jukebox) to shuffle songs, so there isn't a need to listen to full albums straight through. If I were to listen to a full album, I'd pop the CD in.

 

[Rob Gardiner]

A two-handed operation vs. the "easier" [gasp!] one-handed equivalent on the PC!



About the filmmakers, click the link on the film's page and they tell their whole story.

 

[Scott L]

Haha don't make me dig up the link again, he never actually said that, actually.

Not sure how this turned into some people saying this is PC vs. Apple. I love iTunes but I was surprised when I saw that video, that's all.

If the world was a semi-perfect place we'd all be putting Hi-Def AAC files on our iPods, Rios, or what have you. As far as I know MP3 can't do 24/96.

 

[ThomasC]

A Message From the Neistat Brothers

 

[Angelo.M]

Arguing over the best digital audio player is like arguing over who's got the biggest... ...nose.

Nobody wins.

Love my G3 15GB iPod. Karma, iRiver and the others are fine players. It's great to have lots of good choices. Now how about a section of HTF for DAPs?

 

[Gwon Chang]

Hi guys,

Rio fanboy here. Rob G. and friends, the Rio Karma is AWESOME! I've had one since the end of June and it has been great. I have about 2500 songs or so on it and about 4 gbs left.

Yeah, it ain't no Apple, but it really is great. Here are some reasons why.

1. Gapless playback. One of my main reasons for buying it. I have many live albums, bootlegs, concept, etc, and they ALL play flawlessly w/o gaps. Awesome.

2. Long battery life. One of my other main reasons for buying it. I haven't timed it from start to finish, but one full charge can last me 2-3 weeks (using in the car for 30-45 minutes a day).

3. On the fly playlist creation. What I'll do is set the Karma to do a random play, or songs I haven't heard in XXX days. I'll hear something cool, then think that Song XXX would be great to hear. And I look it up, hit Insert, and voila! Next song up is Song XXX. And after that, the list continues.

4. Ogg Vorbis compatibility. I admit I had no idea what OGG was before buying this unit. It wasn't until I realized that OGG supported gapless and that the Karma supported OGG and gapless that it all came clear. I ripped most everything I have with 192kbs OGG (level 6, I think) using CDex. Does it sound better than .mp3? Don't know. Are there gaps in Operation: Mindcrime? Heck no!

5. Included Sennheiser headphones. They aren't the best, but they beat the crap most manufacturers include.

6. Included dock supports USB 2.0 and ethernet and has RCA out to hook up to home stereo. Oh, yeah, did I mention the dock lights up blue when charging? Or pulses to the music? Or pulses when charging? Talk about sweet. Here's how cool this thing is. My computer is on one side of the room, my home stereo on the other side. I take an RCA cable, plug it to my receiver AUX IN, and set the dock on top. I have an ethernet wire running from my router to the dock. So what's that mean? I can play music from the Rio directly to the stereo. I can rip music to the computer and send it over the wire to my Karma. There's no need to plug and unplug and move things around. Genius!

7. Equalizer settings. There are some presets (Trance, Rock, Classical, etc) but there's also a robust customizable EQ. Very nice.

8. Karma as HDD. There is software called Rio Taxi that allows you to use the Karma as an external HDD. However, I've heard that it isn't very user friendly. YMMV.

So what don't I like about the Karma?

1. Lousy warranty. 90 days. Make sure you buy an extended warranty.

2. Questionable QA/HDD reliability. My first one died in 3 days. The HDD locked up. I did the dreaded Bitch Slap Your Karma fix and it worked for a sec, then failed. That one went back and I got a new one locally. That's worked great for 2 months now (knock wood).

3. Lack of aftermarket goodies. Aside from a few "homebrew" cases and an entrepeneur who has made static cling screen guards, that's about it. Not like the iPod where you can practically brew coffee with it, if you have the right attachment .

4. Moving parts. Yes, the scroll wheel is fragile. But so is an egg. Just be careful.

These are all observations off the top of my head. I've told many people that the Karma is quite possibly the coolest gadget I've ever bought. It's made me rediscover my music collection and I'm thankful for it. I sold my PS2 and many games to fund this thing. It's been worth every penny!

PS: the site that has the 40gb Karma? May be a "custom" job with a voided warranty. There is a guy at Riovolution who opened up a 20gb Karma, dremeled out all the tabs, inserted a 40gb hdd in and modded it. Not sure if the above site is doing the same or if their legit.

PPS: rumor has it that the Karma2 is just around the corner (Fall). Not sure about the specs other than it will have 40gb. Keep your eyes peeled.

Here's one more good Karma site: Karmalicious.ca

I love my Karma!

 

[Rob Gardiner]

Gwon,


I realized you meant it in a lighthearted, "Soup Nazi" sense and not the more serious "kill 6 million Jews" sense, but my objection was that you use a term meant for biased zealots to describe those with legitimate, constructive complaints. Even if the filmmakers were Mac Haters or PC Nazis and never owned an Ipod, their complaint was valid, and encourated Apple to change its policy for the better.

 

[MarkHastings]

Sorry if my emotions got the best of me. I didn't mean to turn this into a Mac vs. PC debate.

 

[ChadM]

I just read this fascinating thread and I have a question.

Will an Ipod hook to my home stereo?