If it's not 100 watts, then why rate it as such? (external amp heaven)

Discussion in 'AV Receivers' started by MichaelDDD, Oct 16, 2003.

  1. MichaelDDD

    MichaelDDD Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2003
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    0
    Real Name:
    Mike
    [rant]

    After checking things out for two weeks, I'm disgusted, confused and ticked off.

    Been looking at new receivers, such as the H/K 7200 and Denon 3803 to replace my capable but obviously low-end B&M Kenwood VR-409.

    The power ratings are what's got me confused and steamed. For example, the 7200 is rated at 100 W.P.C, @ 8 ohms, 20Hz-20KHz, all channels driven. OK, fine.

    I've read lots of reviews...even different independent tests can't seem to come up w/the same number. Most times, they wind up measuring about 50-60 watts per channel, RMS, on the surrounds.

    What's up with that? It's just isn't right. I know all about the 1KHz rating trick, that's why I look for the 20Hz-20KHz test spec. Seems like lying to me!

    Now I understand why people get external amps. B/C they REALLY do 100 or however many watts-per-channel, not just 50 or whatever. [​IMG]

    I'm REALLY tempted to skip getting another receiver and get external amps and keep my Kenwood VR-409. It doesn't do "ES versions" of DD or DTS, but it's got preouts for all channels, and does DD and DTS just fine, thanks. I am thinking I can wait on moving to 7.1, even though I have enough surrounds for it.

    Somebody hit me with a fire extinguisher or Bucket Full O'Knowledge, please.

    [rant]
     
  2. Mike Wladyka

    Mike Wladyka Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2003
    Messages:
    630
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think sound and visions independent test rated the HK7200 at 142watts x 5 channels
     
  3. ColinM

    ColinM Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2001
    Messages:
    2,050
    Likes Received:
    0
    Since you have pre-outs, I agree with keeping the Kenwood for now.

    Get a good 2, 3, or a few mono channel amps and try that out, unless you have the cash to go with the 5 ch.

    And you can't smear all receivers for the sins of a few. HK rates NONE of it's stuff on the high side - in fact they are honest about the ratings, which probably costs them big in sales. My AVR110 is only 40*5 on paper, but I won't care for a long time since I can hear how good that really is.
     
  4. MichaelDDD

    MichaelDDD Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2003
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    0
    Real Name:
    Mike
    Hmm, maybe I'm thinking about a lower model HK? I know it was either an HK or a Denon I read about...I've read so many reviews lately that I can't see straight. [​IMG]

    AFA what I'm going to do...I dunno. I'm not in a big rush, since I think my Kenwood is decent, and I just got real speakers. :b Want to see what the receiver will do with real speakers instead of the toys I had. (Kenwood towers made out of nifty 5/8" particle board and spit)
     
  5. alan halvorson

    alan halvorson Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 1998
    Messages:
    2,009
    Likes Received:
    0
    The FTC rule is that, if power is mentioned in advertising, then it has to be measured in a particular way and it must be stated in a certain way. Watts, load, bandwidth and maximum distortion must all be mentioned. Example: 100 Watts into 8 ohms at no more than .01% distortion from 20Hz-20KHz. Sometimes a 4 ohm load is specified. 100 watts into 4 ohms translates into 50 watts into 8 ohms. Perhaps this is what was said. If not, and it is true that the amp under question cannot meet their advertised specs, then it is a violation of the FTC rule. I find it unlikely H/K and Denon are guilty of this, but I suppose it could happen. What reviews claim otherwise?
     
  6. MichaelDDD

    MichaelDDD Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2003
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    0
    Real Name:
    Mike
    I guess I should've posted a source...honestly, I've read tens of reviews in just the past week. I don't remember.

    But I am being honest...IIRC, it was a three-way shootout...had an Onkyo in there...the 7200...and I can't remember which other receiver...think it was the 3803.
     
  7. ColinM

    ColinM Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2001
    Messages:
    2,050
    Likes Received:
    0
    The HK 7200 was the only one of the 3 that was not THX rated, I believe, and it seemed on paper to have the most power. The JVC was very good as well.

    In any case, the engineers are given a list of constraints and told to do their best, and then marketing has to sell the pig. Pricing comes in to cover the cost and make a profit.

    HK seems to not let marketing "work the numbers" in any way - If it's 100 watts on paper, but on the test bench it pushed 122w, HK still says 100. Interesting.

    Also note that wattage goes up quickly depending on the "clip" threshold - the same amp that is 50 watts at .005 distortion may also be 100 watts at 0.1%. Its a curve. If you like distortion, you can have big power ratings all day.
     
  8. MichaelDDD

    MichaelDDD Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2003
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    0
    Real Name:
    Mike
    [mr mackie] Umm...distortion is BAD...mm'kay?[/mr mackie]

    Nope. Distortion and it's father, Papa Clipping, is what blows speakers, not wattage. (within limits, of course)

    If I decide to go the receiver route instead of the amp route, the HK7200 is on my short list.

    Looking into the new Yamaha 2400 as well...can't find any reviews though.
     
  9. kevin tate

    kevin tate Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2003
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    0
  10. Doug Brewster

    Doug Brewster Second Unit

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    325
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Hmm, maybe I'm thinking about a lower model HK? I know it was either an HK or a Denon I read about..."

    It was Denon. HK always meets their specs. Denon generally does not. That is not a reflection of Denon quality, only a reflection of Denon power ratings. The 3803 is an excellent product, but is not as powerful as the the 7200.
    Power isn't everything, but I prefer the sound of HK amps. They are just warmer and more musical than most other AVR's.

    By the way, tried the link cited by kevin tate and it is not functional.

    Here's one that lists many of the older receiver's and their ratings:
    http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Holl...1/ratevsac.htm

    Here's another link that may be useful:

    http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...&page_number=1
     
  11. kevin tate

    kevin tate Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2003
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    0
  12. MichaelDDD

    MichaelDDD Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2003
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    0
    Real Name:
    Mike
  13. Yogi

    Yogi Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,741
    Likes Received:
    0
    Keep the Kenwood and get an external separate amp for at least the two fronts. That way you will have more than adequate power for all your channels as the Kenwood would be relieved of driving the front two (which is where most of the action scenes are) and be able to perform adequately on the remaining channels. There are tons of used amps on Audiogon from respectable makers in the 125Wx2 range that will satisfy your needs for less than $350. Save the money and the aggarvation by taking the first step into the world of separates. You wont regret it.

    My 2 rusty cents[​IMG].
     
  14. Chu Gai

    Chu Gai Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    7,270
    Likes Received:
    1
     
  15. kevin tate

    kevin tate Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2003
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    0
    Agreed w/Yogi, I just purchase an Audiosource Amp 3 to run my two front tower speakers and use the receiver to run the center and the surround. The front channels sound less bright and clearer at high volume w/the amp. You'll save a lot of $ this way.
     
  16. alan halvorson

    alan halvorson Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 1998
    Messages:
    2,009
    Likes Received:
    0
    I didn't know that the rule wouldn't apply to multi-channel amplifiers - it makes no sense that it doesn't, but I haven't the rule before me to check. Back to the old days when 10 watt amps could be rated at 100?
     
  17. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 1999
    Messages:
    11,571
    Likes Received:
    24
    Location:
    NorCal
    Real Name:
    John
    Why rate them that way? Because people want to see those magic numbers. They may get their rating off a single unit, that is not representative of the actual production model. How they arrive at their specs is not regulated, and they are certainly not going to tell you how they do it, not to mention each manufacturer's method is going to be different. Continuous? Burst/momentary? It hit 100w but it blew up? Who knows. Trust your ears, not their ratings.

    A 10W tube amp is likely capable of 100W bursts, while an average 10w SS amp is unlikely to be able to do this.
     
  18. Wayne A. Pflughaupt

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 1999
    Messages:
    6,061
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    Katy, TX
    Real Name:
    Wayne
    Michael,

    I would hope that you’re pursuing this because you’ve determined that you actually need more power, not because you’re Kenwood doesn’t “cut it” on paper...?

    Regards,
    Wayne A. Pflughaupt
     
  19. MichaelDDD

    MichaelDDD Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2003
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    0
    Real Name:
    Mike
    I love this place. [​IMG]

    I did not know there was no regulatory standard in place for surround or "all channels driven" specs. No wonder they can get away with saying whatever they want! There's no rules!

    My Kenwood was not cutting it with my Kenwood speakers; it was just running out of steam. During high-volume excursions, lengthy transients would begin to sound "compressed" instead of "open."

    I want to see how it fares with the Axioms I just bought. (M22/VP-150/QS-8) Allthough, it might no do well at all, b/c the 150 and QS8s are 6 ohms and the Kenwood's not rated to do 6 ohms. I may be upgrading regardless.
     
  20. ColinM

    ColinM Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2001
    Messages:
    2,050
    Likes Received:
    0
    The lower the ohm, the more wattage the speaker will pull from the amp. This can cause lesser amps to be clipped while they try to deliver that wattage, and may run quite hot. Just listen for signs of stress. In the meantime, watch for a good deal on a stereo amplifier. You can always sell a used amp for about what you got it for, as long as you don't overpay to begin with.
     

Share This Page