Identifying Blu-ray VC-1 Discs ???

Discussion in 'Blu-ray and UHD' started by Dave Moritz, Aug 7, 2006.

  1. Dave Moritz

    Dave Moritz Producer
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    With the questionable quality of the current MPEG2 encoded disc's only hurting the acceptance of the Blu-ray format. Will Sony or any of the movie studios do anything to identify the new VC-1 encoded discs? Or will they hope that the confusion of what discs are VC-1 will serve to help get rid of the current supply of MPEG2 encoded discs? Sony should have never used the MPEG2 encoded titles to begin with. Not with Toshiba looking to capture the same market that Sony is currently after. Sony might have gotten away with it if there had been no competition. If the new VC-1 encoded discs where labeled or had some kind of identification mark. I am sure that sales on Blu-ray titles would increase and any confusion would be eliminated. I for one am not buying any Blu-ray titles because I do not want any MPEG2 titles. If there are a few people here that have the same opinion that are posted. Then how many more consumers are doing the same thing for the same reason that are not posting there opinions on this or other web sites.

    If anyone has any information regarding this topic please feel free to post it. Sony also needs to realize that the use of MPEG2 encoded disc's will only serve to hurt Blu-ray's chances of success. At this point I am buying both formats so if Sony fails to get a clue. I have no problem of supporting HD-DVD and dropping support of Blu-ray.
     
  2. Alon Goldberg

    Alon Goldberg Screenwriter

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    Hi Dave - its my understanding that a full length feature encoded with VC-1 will not fit onto a 25GB Single Layer BD. Until the Sony camp can successfully release Dual Layer BD, all feature films will likely be encoded with MPEG-2.
     
  3. Ricardo C

    Ricardo C Producer

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    That's incorrect. One of the great advantages of VC-1 is how much more efficient than MPEG2 it is. MPEG2-based releases are being criticized precisely because MPEG2 can't yield the best possible quality with only 25 GB to work with. VC-1, on the other hand, could, if it were used.
     
  4. Alon Goldberg

    Alon Goldberg Screenwriter

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    Hi Ricardo - let's do some math:

    At 12 Mbit/sec for VC-1, video uses 20.1 Gigabytes.
    Lossless track, using Dolby’s TrueHD average compression rate of 2.4 gives us 4.1 Gigabytes.
    Lossy audio track uses 1.1 Gigabytes.
    Total = 20.1+4.1+1.1 = 25.2 Gigabytes

    Now VC-1 at 15 Mbit/sec, pushes the total to 30 Gigabytes.

    I don't believe the Blu-Ray camp could fit a full length feature encoded with VC-1 and include Dolby TrueHD onto Single Layer 25GB media.
     
  5. Ricardo C

    Ricardo C Producer

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    1. Where are the equivalent MPEG2 numbers?
    2. Dolby TrueHD isn't mandatory on BluRay, nor are any additional audio tracks.
    3. VC-1 doesn't need the same bitrates that MPEG2 does to achieve equivalent results.
     
  6. Alon Goldberg

    Alon Goldberg Screenwriter

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    VC-1 at 12Mbps is roughly equivalent to MPEG-2 at 20Mbps. I fully agree that VC-1 is far more efficient to MPEG-2. But whatever the case, BD Single Layer media suffers from space limitations. It's a mystery why the Blu-Ray titles are not released with a more efficent codec.
     
  7. Neil Joseph

    Neil Joseph Lead Actor

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    How is it that with a mere 15Gb and VC1 compression and with extras to boot, the same space limitations do not exist on hddvd?
     
  8. JediFonger

    JediFonger Producer

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    whichever the case... when are we expected to see VC1 via BR? i believe that can make/break the format.

    2007? 2008? meanwhile, HD-DVD is piling up.
     
  9. Alon Goldberg

    Alon Goldberg Screenwriter

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    Hi Neil - current HD DVD releases are Dual Layer 30GB disks (15GB x 2), so they don't suffer from the same space limiations as Blu-Ray Single Layer 25GB disks.

    Once the industry is capable of creating Dual Layer 50GB Blu-Ray disks then capacity will no longer be an issue.
     
  10. Dave Moritz

    Dave Moritz Producer
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    I agree that VC-1 can and just may make or break Blu-ray. I was just checking the 3 Blu-ray discs I own and I could not find any information on the case or the disc. Where it said it was single or dual layer, I know that these are single layer because no dual layers have been released yet. So how will we know and how will we be able to tell what discs are dual layer & VC-1 encoded?

    In my opinion HD-DVD is gaining ground and some of the upcoming titles for me are begining to help sway me towards HD-DVD.

    Battlestar Galactica, Band Of Brothers, Batman Begins, Harry Potter, King Kong, The Lord Of The Rings, The Mummy, Apollo 13, Full Metal Jacket, Million Dollar Baby and Terminator 3. So if they added titles like Star Wars, Pirates Of The Caribbean and Gladiator not to mention a few others and I may just jump ship to HD-DVD completely. Thats if Sony does not get there act together.
     
  11. Ryan-G

    Ryan-G Supporting Actor

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    Couple of points,

    First, HD-DVD is incapable of storing 30gigabytes. It loses X amount from formating the disc. From your math, HD-DVD is incapable of storing 15m/bit streams as well.

    Second, HD-DVD is storing entire movies on 15gigabytes in some cases.

    Third, Lossless is not mandatory, Single sided BR can store an entire VC1 movie while using something like DTS.
     
  12. RobertDW

    RobertDW Stunt Coordinator

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    Not always true. For example Kiss Kiss Bang Bang HD DVD is a combo disc with a single layer 15GB HD DVD side and a dual layer DVD9 on the other side. Even with the 15GB limitation this HD DVD title easily stomps on any BD release to date and has a few extras to boot. BTW to date all HD DVD combo discs are 15GB single layer on the HD DVD side however soon they will be 30GB HD DVD and DVD9 on the other side combo discs.
     
  13. Alon Goldberg

    Alon Goldberg Screenwriter

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    Hi Ryan - my math is as follows:

    12 Mbps / 8 bits * 60 seconds * 115 minutes / 1000 MB = 10.3 GB + audio (Single Layer HD DVD with lossless audio)
    12 Mbps / 8 bits * 60 seconds * 230 minutes / 1000 MB = 20.1 GB + audio (Dual Layer HD DVD with lossless audio)
    15 Mbps / 8 bits * 60 seconds * 230 minutes / 1000 MB = 25.9 GB + audio (Dual Layer HD DVD, without lossless audio)

    Dual Layer HD DVD is certainly capable of storing 15Mbps streams. Also, Single Layer HD DVD is very much capable of storing a full feature film (115 mins), as you noted.

    Please define how much X data you expect to lose when formatting the disc. The industry clearly defines dual layer media as capable of holding 30GB, and as HD DVD-R and HD DVD-Rewritable players are not commonly available, I certainly haven't seen any figures.

    http://www.hddvdprg.com/hddvd/hddvd_3.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD
     
  14. Sam Davatchi

    Sam Davatchi Producer

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    Well, I make the math very simple! There is no math! If you can fit it in MPEG-2, you can fit the same in VC-1. [​IMG]


    Seriously I don't understand one word of what you described in your posts.
     
  15. Rommel_L

    Rommel_L Second Unit

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    Just wondering why Sony for now choose to implement MPEG-2 instead of VC-1. Is it because VC-1 = WMV9, hence a continuation of that dang competition between Sony and MS.
     
  16. Michael Osadciw

    Michael Osadciw Screenwriter

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    apparently VC-1 authoring tools aren't ready for BD until fall. That's why I heard.

    Mike
     
  17. JediFonger

    JediFonger Producer

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    i sense a lot of corporate discomfort between Sony support of BR and MS support of HD-DVD =).
     
  18. Dave Moritz

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    I realize that there is some debate on media fitting on 15, 25 and 30 gig discs using VC-1 instead of MPEG2. But how much compression is being used? I would have a hard time believing that there was no compression of data going on in ether format.

    I was looking over my HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs and none of them where marked on if they where single or dual layer discs. Now granted the Blu-ray's for now are all single layer so that is a given. But I find it funny that many of the SD-DVD's display on the back of the case if they are dual layer. I see no reason why ether side can not do the same thing and say that this disc is dual layer. Maybe its a studio thing and some do it and some do not. But I have a bad feeling that non of the HD discs will say dual layer on them.

    Well if there will be no VC-1 titles until later this year then I guess then I will not be buying any of the Blu-ray releases until the end of the year. Hell I will not have a Blu-ray player until the begining of December anyway, Merry Christmas [​IMG][​IMG].

    My Upgrade Schedule
    Sept. 1st - Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD Player
    Dec. 8th - Sony BDP-S1 Blu-ray Player
    ? Purchase new reciever or pre/pro with (DTS-HD, DD+ and DT-HD)
    ? 1080p Projector w/ 120" Stewert Film Screen
     
  19. Alon Goldberg

    Alon Goldberg Screenwriter

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    Hi Dave - by definition, both VC-1 and MPEG-2 are codec's, meaning algorithm's that code/compress and decode/decompress streams of data. Of course the data is compressed.

    But I see in your signature that you are a 1080p supporter. If you read on Microsoft's website on what bitrates can be used for encoding 1080p you will see:

    1920 x 1080 / 30 (1080p), 20Mbps

    I would be less concerned about what codec is used, and more concerned about obtaining media with True 1080p content. A Dual Layer HD DVD encoded at 20Mbps can fit over 150 minutes of content + lossless audio. I don't see how a Blu-Ray disc encoded in MPEG-2 could possibly fit 1080p.

    http://www.microsoft.com/windows/win...2005/VC-1.aspx
     
  20. Dave Moritz

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    While I would agree that true 1080p content is very important. I can not agree that the codex is not. It has become very evident that Toshiba's use of VC-1 is superior to Sony's MPEG2 encoded discs. Both are supposed to be 1080p encoded discs. I am however getting concerned that Sony has not produced any dual layer discs yet. You would think that you would have that all worked out before launching a format. If Sony can not get dual layer discs out that could seriously damage the blu-ray platform. Sony is spending alot of money on this venture so if it fails, I am wondering how badly it will hurt the company financially?

    1080p was one of the reasons why I decided to support Blu-ray and I originally was going to only back Blu-ray. But now after looking into HD-DVD and getting tired of Sony's stupidity. I am now buying a HD-DVD first and the Blu-ray second. And if Sonys player is bug ridden after all these delays, I may just cancel the purchase of Blu-ray all together.

    BTW thanks for the link Alon, that information was very useful.
     

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