I need help with CLD-79 DTS problems!

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Chris PC, Oct 5, 2001.

  1. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    On my 79 I cannot play a DTS disc without first playing a DD disc. If I turn on the player and play a DTS disc, there is no sound (digital sound). I tried the D/A button on the remote and that has no effect, as it is configured ok. please note: I have tried both COAX and OPTICAL cables going both directly from the LD player into my receiver and also I have run them through the RF demodulator and its the same no matter what. My receiver does DTS from DVD's ok.
    So again, when I turn on the player and put in a DTS disc, there is no digital DTS sound. I must first play a DD disc for a second and then pop in a DTS LD and it works. If I turn off the player, again, before I play a DTS disc, I have to play a DD one again!
    Any ideas? I think I might have to get it serviced. I don't have a whole lot of DTS discs though so I don't want to drop a lot of cash to fix it.
    ??
    [Edited last by Chris PC on October 05, 2001 at 07:23 PM]
     
  2. Michael Reuben

    Michael Reuben Studio Mogul

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    I've already tried to explain what I think is causing this problem in your previous thread. Let me try again.
    There is a documented incompatibility between some Pioneer players and some DTS decoders that interferes with the ability of the decoder to lock onto the DTS datastream. I have direct experience of this problem with my Pioneer CLD-95; my first Lexicon DC-1 couldn't maintain a datalock on DTS tracks.
    To confirm whether that is the problem here, please try the following experiment:
    1. Disconnect the demodulator altogether and connect the LD player's digital out (not the RF out) to your receiver. No analog connection.
    2. Play an LD with a basic PCM digital track (not DTS). Is there sound?
    3. Now play a DTS LD. Is there sound?
    If the answers are "yes" on (2) and "no" on (3), then the problem is what I've described. If so, fixing the LD player won't help. You'll need to either upgrade the DTS firmware in your receiver (if that's possible) or change receivers.
    If the answers are "no" to both (2) and (3), then the problem isn't what I've described, and servicing the LD player may be in order.
    M.
    [Edited last by Michael Reuben on October 05, 2001 at 10:25 AM]
     
  3. Trevor Schell

    Trevor Schell Supporting Actor

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    Run a digital cable directly from the CLD-79 to the Receiver and bypass the RF Demodulator. The playback of DTS does not require the RF,therefore there is no need to go that route.
    Run a second digital cable to the RF for your AC-3 playback.
    You will need to use two digital inputs to do this but it should eliminate your troubles.
    ------------------
    Trevor..[​IMG]
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  4. Michael Reuben

    Michael Reuben Studio Mogul

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    Trevor, he already tried that, and it didn't help.
    This is Chris's second thread on the same topic.
    M.
     
  5. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    Michael,
    Thanks for the ideas. I haven't a DTS CD to try. I might try to grab one this weekend and see. Also, I noticed my LD player skipped on a CD, but I have heard this can happen and its not necessarily related to my DTS playback troubles.
    OK, so I should disconnect the RCA cables I have for the analog tracks and connect an DIGITAL OPTICAL or DIGIAL COAX cable ONLY from the Pioneer CLD-79 directly to the Marantz SR 6200 and play a LD with DIGITAL sound but not DD or DTS?
    Is that correct? I will try that. So again, I have to make sure the analog RCA's are disconnected, just to simplify the test? Play a Digital LD? Should I try an OPTICAL or COAX Digital cable?
    I will try those things for sure, but I was wondering why playing the DD disc made a difference? For instance, if I play a DD DVD and then switch the receiver to the LD source again, it still won't play the DTS. There is a change that occurs in the LD output before and after I play a DD and then a DTS LD. (or possibly a change occuring in the receivers input).
    I'll try those suggestions and let you know what happens. Thanks again [​IMG]
     
  6. Michael Reuben

    Michael Reuben Studio Mogul

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    The DVD player is irrelevant. Let me say this one more time: What you have been describing sounds like a problem between the LD player and the receiver. The test that I proposed is an attempt to see whether that is indeed what you've been experiencing.
    M.
     
  7. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    Skip to the end for a summary that is simpler but I provide all the info below.
    Configuration for my test:
    Digital cable direct from LD to SR 6200 receiver DSS input digi-4 (When it is connected. Not always connected see below)
    RF AC3 (when connected, again, see below) input from LD to RF demodulator and then to MD digi-3 input.
    Troubleshooting tests:
    1) NO AC3 RF cable attached to LD player. The only thing hooked up is the coax cable from the Pioneer LD player digital out to the DSS digi4 input on receiver. Played digital stereo and digital stereo LD's fine.
    2) NO AC3 RF cable attached to LD player.
    a) Again, digital cable only. No DTS on first try after powering up LD player.
    b) Next, play a DD AC3 disc WITH NO RF cable connected to the LD player at all and hence, no audio through receiver, and then next, playing DTS disc again allowed DTS to work.
    3) With RF AC3 output connected to the RF demodulator and the RF demod output into MD digi3. Same playback. No DTS without first playing a DD AC3 disc. Input selected or not, it doesn't matter, as is obvious with above identical test results without ANY RF AC3 cable attached whatsoever. PCM digital stereo or digital surround tracks work fine with or without first playing DD Ac3 disc.
    4) RF to Demod. Digital cable to Demod. RF demod output to MD digi3. Same results. No DTS unless DD disc played first. PCM digital stereo or digital surround tracks work fine with or without first playing DD Ac3 disc.
    5) RF to demod disconnected. Digital cable connected as in all above, directly from LD to rcvr. Turn on player and DTS does not work. If I then insert and play a Digital disc (not DTS or DD AC3, just digital stereo surround) WITH or WITHOUT digital cable connected and then play a DTS disc (after reconnecting the digital cable if dissconnected of course), the DTS then works again, just as it does with using a DD first.
    Note this very important point:
    I do not have to have the AC3 DD RF connected AT ALL, nor do I have to have the digital cable connected when I play the DD or Digital stereo disc in preparation to play DTS.
    What I mean is this:
    I can turn on the player and after it fails to play a DTS disc, I can disconnect the digital cable and then insert and play a digital stereo LD, then I insert a DTS disc again and reconnect the digital cable and voila, DTS works
    My point in all this, is that something is changing in terms of the digital output of the LD player between when I first turn it on and attempt to playback a DTS disc, to when I insert either an AC3 or digital stereo disc, and the RF and/or digital cable is not even connected to the receiver. So no RF AC3 or digital signal has to even get to the receiver. Whatever is happening, something must be happening to the digital/DTS output of the LD player. Of course I have also done all the tests with the digital cable still connected, but I am trying to eliminate the receiver in the problem solving. I know it could still be the receiver, but you see what I mean right? Its not getting any AC3 or digital signal in between so its not being affected.
    Note: Once DTS works, it continues to work until the Laserdisc player is off. I think something is wrong with the LD players DTS output that is affected when the AC3 or Digital is then used for non-DTS.
    Also note that now after trying your suggestion, I took it further and have now discovered that the problem can be fixed also by playing a Digital disc and not just a DD AC3 disc. Digital Stereo OR Digital sound/mono.
    SUMMARY
    If the above is complicated, I apologize, as i'm just making a trouble-shooting results chart. Here is an easier summary:
    1) Turn on player=No DTS
    2) Next with player still on play either DD AC3 or Digital stereo/surround disc (WITH or WITHOUT RF or DIGITAL cable connected to receiver) and then play DTS and DTS works fine (with digital cable connected of course).
    3) Player continues to allow DTS playback with other DTS discs.
    4) Turn off player and turn on again 5 to 10 seconds later equals NO DTS again.
    Running digital cable through RF demod makes no difference. Optical cable directly from the LD to RCVR also does not change test results.
    So. Any more trouble shooting I should do? I am stuck with living with the quirk or having it repaired?
    One test I could try is repeating the entire thing with another receiver. I don't have easy access to one. If I did that, what brand would you suggest?
    [Edited last by Chris PC on October 06, 2001 at 12:48 PM]
     
  8. Michael Reuben

    Michael Reuben Studio Mogul

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    Bottom line: Yes, I think you should try another receiver. I can't suggest a specific model, because I haven't used receivers for years.
    A few comments:
    Let's forget about the AC-3 DD sound for a moment. The digital output that you're connecting gives you either DTS or PCM. Two of your tests seem to have yielded contradictory results:
    In this example, it sounds like you did get 2-channel PCM sound from the non-DTS disc. And then after that, you got DTS. If I've interpreted correctly, then this sounds more like the hardware incompatibility I've described. The LD player and receiver don't communicate when the first signal through is DTS, but once digital communication is established using a PCM signal, then they work correctly.
    I'd try another receiver before shelling out for repair work.
    M.
     
  9. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    Thanks for taking the time to address my problem. I didn't check for a non-AC3 digital track on DD discs. When I said "and hence, no audio at the receiver" I shouldn't have said that. At the very least, I meant "NO AC3 DD audio". I will try and listen with the digital cable to see if the PCM digital stereo/surround comes through. Thanks. Thats a good point and would help with troubleshooting.
    Because there has never been a problem with either the "RF DD AC3" or analog sound , I had disconnected that cable entirely for these tests, besides, they were connected when I first discovered this problem and the results were identical. I disconnected the cable to minimize variables, including any RF interference, since my RF cable may not be well sheilded.
    There's something you missed when you say you think my receiver is "establishing digital communication" That's hardly possible, at least not when I play the non-DTS discs, as I ruled that out by disconnecting ALL audio cables. here:
    Remember, the only cable connected is a cable from the digital out to the receiver, and ONLY when trying to play DTS. Playing the next disc, I had NO CABLES connected. Yes I have left it connected before but again, the results are the same.
    1) LD Player is Off. Turn on LD player.
    2) Try to play DTS=No sound
    3) "disconnect digital cable" and then play an AC3 or digital pcm encoded disc WITHOUT a single digital, RF or analog cable connected. There is NO PATH FOR audio of any kind to reach the receiver. When I play a digital pcm soundtrack, the digital cable can be COMPLETELY absent. Not connected.
    4) Try DTS again with digitall cable and it works fine.
    I will try to check for a digital soundtrack on a DD disc and i have neglected to see if a totally analog disc would also cause the same fix to make DTS play on the next time, but I doubt it.
    I will go and repeat the test with a completely analog disc and also with a DD AC3 disc, but with the digital cable connected.
    [Edited last by Chris PC on October 06, 2001 at 05:04 PM]
     
  10. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    Yes, when I play a DD disc with no RF cable, the digital stereo/surround does play fine through the digital cable. Digital stereo/surround also works on normal discs (non-DD or non-DTS) upon first turning on the player. I tried playing an analog disc after first playing a DTS disc that didn't playback and as expected, the analog disc had no effect.
    After turning on my LD player I get no DTS until I play a DD or digital stereo/surround LD. I have been trying this with either DTS Liar Liar or DTS Mask, both DTS LD's are from different companies. I guess it wouldn't hurt to try another DTS LD too. I'll try that later.
    Of course, the problem is, DTS is so large an audio format, meaning lots of data, there are no "plain digital" audio tracks on DTS laserdisc and I must resort to the analog. If it was DD AC3 that wasn't working, I would at least have the digital stereo/surround tracks. Anyways, I bought this player for the features it has so I should try to fix it and enjoy the DTS properly.
    Oh well. like I said, I don't have loads of DTS discs, so I'll have to wait and see if it drives me bonkers. I don't like the added wear and tear of have to PRE-PLAY another disc before a DTS disc. I will test my LD player with another receiver somehow and if it performs the same way, perhaps I'll take it in for an estimate.
    Thanks again for the help. At least I can get it to work in the meantime and its not like I can't play DTS discs, its just a bit of a hassle.
    [Edited last by Chris PC on October 06, 2001 at 07:27 PM]
     
  11. Michael Reuben

    Michael Reuben Studio Mogul

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  12. Chris PC

    Chris PC Producer

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    Bummer. Well thanks for the help anyways. I will likely just live with it while I explore the local area for the best place for Pioneer Elite LD repairs. My local shop, Whitby Audio, deals with Pioneer Elite fairly regularly and only charges a $25.00 estimate fee. Unless I can find a place better known for doing good and reasonabley priced repair work on Elite LD players I'll take it to Whitby Audio. I do have to return my receiver due to noisey video switching, so we'll see if that changes anything. It shouldn't.
    Thanks again anyways [​IMG]
    [Edited last by Chris PC on October 06, 2001 at 11:42 PM]
     

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