I don't understand why DVD-A stereo 96/24 exists.

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Philip Hamm, Aug 6, 2001.

  1. Philip Hamm

    Philip Hamm Lead Actor

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    DVD-Video has been able to do this for a long time. The only advantage this particular format has is if PPCM (MLP) is used to save space on the disc.
    If DVD-A discs like my Steely Dan one are going to come with a 96/24 track, isn't there some way to make it playable on both dedicated DVD-A machines and legacy DVD-Video machines? I mean the Classic 96/24 DADs (I own 4 and they are incredible) sound incredibly smooth and detailed, exactly as good technically as 96/24 DVD-A tracks. And everyone with a DVD player can experience 96/24 DVD-Video.
    So why not make the 96/24 track uncompressed and available to both sessions?????? That would make the non-DVD-A users much happier and cost nothing to the DVD-A crowd, who still have the exclusive multichannel hi-def audio (though the DTS sounds great on my Dan disc).
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    Philip Hamm
    AIM: PhilBiker
    [Edited last by Philip Hamm on August 06, 2001 at 01:30 PM]
     
  2. Robert A. Willis Jr.

    Robert A. Willis Jr. Second Unit

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    That would make too much sense. Besides many players pass 24/96 DAD signals on the digital output.
    rw
     
  3. RicP

    RicP Screenwriter

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    Philip,
    I have to disagree with you here. If you want to play DVD-Audio, buy a DVD-Audio player...it's that simple.
    quote: The only advantage this particular format has is if PPCM (MLP) is used to save space on the disc.[/quote]
    Bingo. Do not underestimate that advantage. You COULD NOT fit the entire recording of some releases without using Meridians Packed PCM compression.
    quote: And everyone with a DVD player can experience 96/24 DVD-Video[/quote] Not exactly. They still need either a DVD player with 24/96 DAC's or a pre/pro that can accept a 24/96 signal digitally. DAD's are excellent, but they are now officially obsolete. DVD-Audio offers everything that DAD's so and more with one caveat...you need a DVD-A compatible player.
    quote: So why not make the 96/24 track uncompressed and available to both sessions[/quote] Because that would be compromising the DVD-Audio version by omitting the compression which allows more music to fit in the same space. Also, and this may indeed be more true, there would be no copy protection or watermarking on a 24/96 DAD.
    Saying that it would "cost nothing" to the DVD-A crowd because there's a multi-channel mix does a great disservice to people that care about separate stereo mixes. I for one would not want a Hi-Res Stereo mix cut short due to lack of space. If you want DVD-A, buy a DVD-A player. [​IMG]
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    Ric Perrott
    [Edited last by RicP on August 06, 2001 at 10:02 PM]
     
  4. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Ric hit the nail precisely on the head.
    It's all about space.
    24bit/96K Stereo uncompressed fits about -- hold on while I look it up...... 150 minutes.
    Let's take the Steely Dan disc example that was chosen.
    Two against Nature is 51 minutes or so long, or 1/3 of your available capacity sans compression.
    This leaves you insufficient space to store the compressed 6-channel surround soundtrack on the disc.
    I too wish it could be done, but alas it is not possible.
    And having heard a number of discs do fold-down I've been disappointed and plan to talk with the folks at Meridian about it at CEDIA.
    Regards,
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    John Kotches
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  5. Philip Hamm

    Philip Hamm Lead Actor

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    It's a damn shame if you ask me. This should have been incorporated into the spec. They'd sell a lot more discs I would think.
    I was also thinking that the 96/24 track may max out the bitrate on the DVD-Video track not allowing for a DVD-V session multichannel mix.
     
  6. KeithH

    KeithH Lead Actor

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    I would much rather see 24/192 stereo over 24/96 stereo on DVD-Audio discs, but if we had 24/192, we would not have 24/96 surround-sound tracks, which is something DADs cannot offer (DADs don't offer 24/192 stereo either). Of course, if Warner et al. would make two-sides discs, they could put 24/192 stereo on one side and 24/96 surround sound on the other. That might not enable the inclusion of DVD-Video compatible material though. Maybe DVD-Video material and the 24/96 surround-sound track could go on one side. Hmmm....
    DADs sound very good and are quite convenient given the ubiquitous nature and low cost of DVD-Video players. However, it is clear that the DAD format is dead. Likewise, I don't foresee DTS releasing any more surround-sound CDs.
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    [Edited last by KeithH on August 07, 2001 at 05:40 PM]
     
  7. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Philip,
    That's why I plan on talking to Meridian. I have been unhappy with fold down results so far.
    Regards,
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    John Kotches
    Contributing Writer
    Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
     
  8. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Philip,
    The DVD-V region (actually the video_ts folder) is seperate from the DVD-A region (actually the audio_ts folder).
    The issue is not bit rate from the spindle, it's the absolute amount of data on the disc.
    We talk about some of this in our upcoming feature article on DVD-Audio at Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity .
    Regards,
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    John Kotches
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    Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
     
  9. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Keith,
    DTS is going back and reissuing some of their catalog of surround discs as DVD-Audio with good results so far.
    I have Larisa Stowe, Steve Stevens, Toy Matinee and Studio Voodoo. Well done, and they go back to the PCM masters.
    The problem with going to 24/192K on one side, and surround on the other is the age old one....
    $$$$$
    Incremental cost would be higher, and I'm not sure the content providers (aka the Record Labels) are up for that.
    I have two DVD-A discs with 24bit/192K. One I can talk about, is from Audionet in Germany -- they're a high end manufacturer, and also do some recording. The other is a test/demonstration disc (that's all I can say).
    24bit/192K is stunning.
    Regards,
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    John Kotches
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    Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
     
  10. KeithH

    KeithH Lead Actor

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    John, I have seen the DTS titles re-released for DVD-Audio. Like many others, I suspect, I am waiting for Sting Nothing Like the Sun, The Police Every Breath You Take: The Classics, Steve Miller Band Fly Like an Eagle, Don Henley End of the Innocence, and Eagles Hell Freezes Over to come out on DVD-Audio. Those are some of my favorite DTS CDs. I don't know if we will ever get them, however. The Sting disc could take a long time, if we ever get it, because the DTS CD only came out a few months ago (after numerous delays). We'll see.
    Thanks for the input on 24/192 DVD-Audio. You are definitely in the minority for having heard two 24/192 discs. I've only heard the 24/192 tracks off the sampler disc that came with my Technics DVD-A10 and wasn't that impressed. In addition, I have Jonatha Brooke Steady Pull, which has a 24/176.4 stereo track. To be honest, I thought it sounded good, but not outstanding. I feel the Metallica Metallica and Steely Dan Two Against Nature discs in 24/96 stereo sound better. We're talking different music though.
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  11. David Judah

    David Judah Screenwriter

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    Keith,
    I guess that goes to show how subjective audio really is. I
    have the Technics sampler as well, and I was very impressed with the last three 24/192 titles Broadway, My Funny Valentine, and especially Dancin' Cymbals.
    DJ
     

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