I bi-wired my Klipsch

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by matthew_rm, Jul 25, 2002.

  1. matthew_rm

    matthew_rm Second Unit

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    I do not really notice a big diffrence. It's diffrent, but thats most likely because I moved stuff getting behind the RF3's. I have a Denon2802. Should I run the wires into Speaker A and B? (Right now they are in Speaker A on the amp) Is that bi-amping?
    Thanks for any help[​IMG]
     
  2. Phil Mays

    Phil Mays Second Unit

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    Matthew,

    Out of A Left or Right, you need to run two sets of wires to the speaker. Take the jumpers off and connect one set to the top pair and one set to the bottom pair. That is bi-wiring. Reapeat on the oposite side.

    Bi-amping is one set of wires from one amp to the top pair and one set of wires from the second amp to the bottom pair.

    Bi-wiring will only give you a slight improvement in my opinion. It's a tweak that I have done and enjoy but not everyone agrees that it has any audible advantage.
     
  3. Tom Brennan

    Tom Brennan Screenwriter

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    Matthew---Bi-amping is the practice of dividing the frequencies in the signal between the preamp and amplifiers so that the amp driving the high frequency driver is fed only the high frequencies and the amp driving the woofer is fed only the low frequencies. When this crossing-over before the amps is done with an electronic (also called an active) crossover it's active bi-amping. When the crossing-over is done with line-level passive circuits between preamp and amps it's called passive bi-amping. In both cases no passive crossover is used at the speaker level and the amps are wired directly to the drivers. This is what bi-amping means and both types have been in use since the 1930s. The silly practice of modern audiophiles of running 2 amps FULLRANGE into the low and high legs of the speaker's passive crossover is known by many bi-amping veterans as "fools bi-amping". This questionable practice gives none of the benefits of real bi-amping which are that the high frequency amp is not taxed by reproducing low frequencies this giving a decrease in distortion and an increase in dynamic range. Clarity is increased also by not using reactive crossover elements at the speaker stage of the signal, caps and coils at this stage are not so good for the sound. www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org
     
  4. DanielSmi

    DanielSmi Second Unit

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    Tom,

    I hopefully will have a pair of Klipsch rf-5's soon and had plan on bi-amping them. Can you give me more detail on the equipment I will need to do say either active or passive bi-amping, also how do I do active or passive bi-amping and what are the differences? If you or anyone else can answer these questions I will be very grateful. Thanks in advance.

    Daniel Smith
     
  5. Paul Chalk

    Paul Chalk Stunt Coordinator

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    My speakers actually sounded worse when I bi-wired them. It wasn't a night and day difference, but the highs didn't seem as clear. I have B&W 602 S3's. I was using 12 gauge for the low end and 16 for the high, both at lengths of 8 feet. Maybe I'll try bi-wiring again when I get some 14 gauge or some more 12 gauge.
     
  6. Cam S

    Cam S Screenwriter

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    I don't see how Bi-wiring could make a difference, but I could see Bi-amping would. I don't have my RF-3's yet, but I should try Bi-amping my RB-3's
     
  7. Phil Mays

    Phil Mays Second Unit

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    I am certainly not as informed as Tom both enjoying and learning from his post, even if I did not fully understand it completely[​IMG] .
    In my set up I have all Klipsch speakers. For the mains I run KLF-20's and surrounds I run RF-3's. The 20's are more effecient than the 3's. I amped 5 channels @ 150 WPC with an AMC amp. Later I bought a Carver amp and "bi-amped" the 3's and my RC-3 rear. When I did that with the 3's they had (what I think, but what do I know:b) more "juice" going to the different array of drivers that seemed to open them up dramatically to the point that I think they sound almost as good as the 20's, perhaps even better.
    However I do wish I knew more about the subject other than the "plug it in and lets see if it works" method.:b
     
  8. Tom Brennan

    Tom Brennan Screenwriter

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    Bi-amping is simple in concept but a little difficult to explain. Let's say you have a 2-way speaker with a crossover at 800hz. Between the preamp and amp you divide the signal and send the parts of the signal below 800hz to amp A, that amp is then wired directly to the woofer driver terminals. The part of the signal above 800hz is sent to amp B and that amp is then wired directly to the treble driver terminals. Thus passive crossovers at the speaker level are eliminated.
    This dividing of the signal between preamp and amp can be done in one of two ways. One way is to use a device called an electronic crossover. This is an active device that allows you to set the crossover point and usually has level controls for balancing the drivers. Such devices are easily found in prosound stores and music stores like Sam Ash and Guitar Center. They are inexpensive and the better brands such as DOD, Rane and Behringer add no distortion to the sound.
    The 2nd way to divide the signal is with passive networks between preamp and amps, these networks use small, low-value caps and resistors, so small that they can be incorporated into the RCA jack housing of the patch-cord. I use such filters now, they were designed and made for me by my buddy and fellow Chicago Horn Club member Kurt Chang.
    Either way you have the advantage of the amps only working on a part of the signal bandwidth. This also allows you to choose amps on the basis of their sound reproducing a certain bandwidth. I use SS, which is good for bass, from 800hz on down for my woofers, and tubes, which are good for mids and highs, from 800hz on up.
    A Caveat is in order here. When one bi-amps an existing speaker one discards the passive crossover that came with the speaker. However many modern speakers have passive EQ circuits built into the crossover networks that "voice" the speaker. Bi-amping such a speaker will change the tonality of the speaker and thwart the designer's intent. Bi-amping is best left to DIYers or owners of speakers using simple passive crosovers with no EQ.
    Simple eh? And some guys with 3-ways are into tri-amping, oy vey! :) www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org
     
  9. Ron-P

    Ron-P Producer

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    Now don't laugh, but I did up this drawing on bi-amping to help explain it better to a friend.
    [​IMG]
    I had my mains and center bi-wired in which I did notice a difference for the better. I recently bought 3 (2-channel) Adcom GFA-535's and bi-amped my mains and center. I really noticed a sound improvement here, especially at louder volumes. I ran the left channel to the drivers and the right channel to the tweeters.
    Peace Out~[​IMG]
     
  10. chung_sotheby

    chung_sotheby Supporting Actor

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    Ron, i am sorry, but this is nor real biamping. WIth you method, even though you are using 1 amp channel for each driver(woofer and tweeter), you are still sending the driver the full signal which then has to be filtered by the speaker's crossover network(either high-pass or low-pass). The only real way to biamp is to have a passive or active crossover between the pre-out and the amp, so as the high frequencies only go the the amp channel that will feed the tweeter, and the low frequencies go to the amp channel that will feed the woofer. I know that parts express sells some simple passive crossovers, while Marchand electronics sells some of the higher-end active crossovers.
    Ron, when you bi-amp the way illustrated in the picture, you are still giving the amp the burden or trying to reproduce a full-frequency signal while only the speaker has the ability to filter out the signal to the appropriate driver. For example, some tube amps have incredible mid and high clarity and smoothness, while the low end can be slow and sloppy, which in turn may electronically speaking effect the mids and highs coming out from the amp by making them a little less focused and dynamic. So when you feed a full range signal from the preouts to the amp, then the full range signal from the amp to the speakers, the mids and highs will be affected by the sloppiness of the lows, and this high and mid signal will be filtered through the speaker's crossover and sent to the tweeter as such.
     
  11. DanielSmi

    DanielSmi Second Unit

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    Tim,
    I looked at all the models for the Rane, DOD, and Behringer crossovers and none of them have RCA inputs or outputs. They need to have RCA for me to do the active bi-amp thing does anyone know of any models that have RCA inputs? Also what about the Passive bi-amp I think I've seen the those filters I've seen them at Best Buy when I used to work there but they weren't for RCA plugs. Since the crossover point on the RF-5's is at 2500Hz I would need some filters to match the internal crossover point? Also if I were to buy one of these active crossovers wouldn't I have to get one with a rolloff slope that matches the internal crossover's rolloff slope, most of the ones I've seen have 24dB rolloff slopes is that normal I thought sounded a little steep but I maybe I'm wrong I thought average was like 12dB?

    Daniel Smith
     
  12. Tom Brennan

    Tom Brennan Screenwriter

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    Daniel---To use pro-sound crossovers with RCA patch-cords you simply get adaptors that go from RCA to 1/4" or XLR sockets, no problem.
    I know of no turnkey passive networks for bi-amping, you have to make them yourself. My buddy Kurt Chang made mine, takes some figuring. There's a website out there somewhere that shows you how.
    Yes, ideally you'd want a crossover slope that matched that of the speaker's own passive and most pro-sound units are 18 or 24 db per octave. Using a different slope than original could do all sorts of hinkey things to frequency response and dispersion too. That's why bi-amping is generally best left to DIY speaker builders or users of speakers that were intended for true bi-amping.
     
  13. chung_sotheby

    chung_sotheby Supporting Actor

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    Dan, as for rca in and out, you can always buy cables that are rca to 1/4" jack and vice versa, same thing with the passive crossover modules. As for the internal crossover of your speaker, I think that if you are going to really biamp you can experiment with the crossover point and the rolloff at the crossover point. Remember, the crossover point that the speakers states is what the internal speaker's crossover is designed for, but if you get an external crossover, you can play around with the point and slope, just as long as you stay within the given drivers' boundries. External crossovers and real biamping is best for those who are either DIY'ers or people who love tweaking equipment to suit their listening needs. If you want to look for crossovers that are almost infinately adjustable, take a look at some of the marchand modules. the only thing is that external crossovers tend to be very expensive, so dont get into them unless you are absolutely certain that biamping or external crossovers are the way to go
     
  14. Ron-P

    Ron-P Producer

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  15. chung_sotheby

    chung_sotheby Supporting Actor

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    yeah, no problem. If you read a couple of Dan's earlier posts, he does a great job of mentioning just a couple options one has if they would like to bi amp their system. If you are really into biamping, and want to do it right, and have the money to spend(this is the big if), I would have to recommend something from Marchand electronics. I have heard a couple of their pieces used with Norh 9.0 speakers in biamplification mode, and they are amazing. They are very flexible, and competitively priced compared to what other companies charge. They have units that can do three way, four way, two way, almost any way that you can think of. They also sell the units as kits, if you want to save a few bucks. Here is the link:
    http://www.marchandelec.com/
    Hope this helps, Ron, and please let us all know what the results are like if you decide to go this route.
     
  16. Ron-P

    Ron-P Producer

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    Thanks Chung. I took a quick look at their site. I will add these, but not right away unless I can land them (or something similar) on ebay for a little less coin. If not, my bonus check at the end of the year will cover them and I'll do it then most definitely.
    Peace Out~[​IMG]
     
  17. chung_sotheby

    chung_sotheby Supporting Actor

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    Ron, you might also want to check this out:
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...item=896010277
    It seems like the same sort of thing as the Marchand, but a lot cheaper. It looks like it is made for more pro-audio settings, but you never know. Maybe its worth a shot.
     
  18. chung_sotheby

    chung_sotheby Supporting Actor

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  19. Ron-P

    Ron-P Producer

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    Nice finds Chung. I want to do some research, ask some questions and such before I buy. Need to get a bit more familiar with monsters of this nature. Being very new with separates, I've got a lot to learn.
    Peace Out~[​IMG]
     
  20. Ron-P

    Ron-P Producer

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    Nevermind, answered my own question:b
    Peace Out~[​IMG]
     

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