Blu-ray Review HTF BLU-RAY REVIEW: Spartacus 50th Anniversary Edition (1 Viewer)

[smithb]

Originally Posted by OliverK

It is not about being an old master but a BAD old master. I gave you details and if you want to continue to ignore these specifics there no further point to the discussion. If we say that an 'old ' master also means something that was done 3 years ago and from a standard 35mm source then I will agree that this could still look good, but we are talking here about something that was done 10 years back and even then the master was not exactly state of the art - big difference.


I already disliked the HD-DVD and if you check you will notice that RAH did not comment on it.

Some of us have actually seen how film look in general and also how specific films look (i.e. Spartacus) so we can form an opinion for ourselves.


Imo it still is very valuable that RAH draws attention to the issue as he has a different standing in the industry than you or I and if somebody somewhere does make an effort to actually have a look at Spartacus while looking for the problems that he mentions he might actually see that they are there and understand that the Spartacus Blu-Ray could have been so much better.

I have absolutely no issue with RAH using his expertise to draw attention to the issues with this release. And I fully understand how it could have been better. In the end, it is all about degrees and perception of how bad or not so bad it really is to each individual.


I'll go back to the quote that I think is one of the most important aspects to this thread:


"The other part of the equation will be based upon a mixture of personal background and knowledge of what a specific film can and should look like, that individual's perceptions of quality as well as their forgiveness of what a video image can / might be. Visual perception can be very personal, and someone is not wrong for liking the disc."


This is why you have people rating the visual quality anywhere from 1.5 to 4. What others have stated about ratings is probably correct. A number system is not enough to properly evaluate a release. Unfortunately, the wording used many times to describe a release can also be equally flawed when one says it is horrendous or unwatchable and another says it less then perfect but more then acceptable.


I guess I'm more into what it is and is it something I can enjoy then being concerned about what it could have been. Anyway, I will find out for myself soon enough.

 

[smithb]

Originally Posted by dpippel

It sure sounds crazy to me. One of the great things about this forum is that it enables members to interact with and LEARN FROM people in the industry like Robert Harris. The opportunity to educate oneself, learn about proper home video presentation, and raise ones standards about home theater is the primary purpose of a place like HTF. If you want to remain blissfully ignorant about quality issues regarding DVD/Blu-ray releases what's the point of being here?

Somehow I don't think you are dictating the purpose and value of this forum to all that use it. The forum is what those that use it make of it. For me, I do learn a lot from this forum, video presentation included, but if I took it all to heart I wouldn't be able to watch a good portion of what I own because they would no longer qualify as "watchable".


I value the content of a film much higher then it's presented video quality. And this forum brings a lot of expertise in expanding one's horizon's on different genre's and era's of films. What films are currently available and what is soon to be released. Current deals available. And many more areas then just proper home video presentation.

 

[dpippel]

Originally Posted by smithb

Somehow I don't think you are dictating the purpose and value of this forum to all that use it. The forum is what those that use it make of it. For me, I do learn a lot from this forum, video presentation included, but if I took it all to heart I wouldn't be able to watch a good portion of what I own because they would no longer qualify as "watchable".


I value the content of a film much higher then it's presented video quality. And this forum brings a lot of expertise in expanding one's horizon's on different genre's and era's of films. What films are currently available and what is soon to be released. Current deals available. And many more areas then just proper home video presentation.

I wasn't trying to dictate and I didn't exclude any of what you mention, all of which are valuable aspects of HTF. My apologies if I came across that way. Obviously most people come here to learn about one thing or another. You were making comments about video quality in a thread reviewing a classic film that has some serious video quality issues and I responded. I was only pointing out that IMO ignoring the faults on a Blu-ray release like Spartacus by seeking out less informed reviews is counterproductive. If "presented video quality" isn't an issue then you'd be better served by picking up the Criterion DVD than the Blu-ray. It has its own problems, but the color timing is correct AND it's loaded with very well done extras.

 

[Michael Elliott]

I'm just reading this thread, which is funny since I just returned from Best Buy where they were actually showing this disc on all their displays to "sell" Blu-ray to people. There was a demo going on with their biggest screen and I stopped by to watch and see how others reacted to the picture. From the group of around 20 people, three ended up buying the disc and two others bought a Blu-ray player. Everyone was impressed and even those walking by the display seems to give the movie a second look and and take notice in the "quality".


I'm sure many here would just call these people idiots and say they didn't know what they were looking at, which might be true but whatever they did see was good enough to make them buy into it, which I'm sure is the main goal at Universal.


I must admit that I got a kick out of these people getting excited over a classic movie like this when most of the time this store is showing off movies from the past couple years only.

 

[smithb]

Originally Posted by dpippel

I wasn't trying to dictate and I didn't exclude any of what you mention, all of which are valuable aspects of HTF. My apologies if I came across that way. Obviously most people come here to learn about one thing or another. You were making comments about video quality in a thread reviewing a classic film that has some serious video quality issues and I responded. I was only pointing out that IMO ignoring the faults on a Blu-ray release like Spartacus by seeking out less informed reviews is counterproductive. If "presented video quality" isn't an issue then you'd be better served by picking up the Criterion DVD than the Blu-ray. It has its own problems, but the color timing is correct AND it's loaded with very well done extras.

Sorry, I missinterpreted your intent.


It's not that I am ignoring the faults, it's that I have to take in all the information to form a judgement on whether to purchase this release or not. I'm glad for all the details that have been presented (better to have more information then not enough). However, if they are from a more critical perspective in this case then how I would approach viewing the film, then it helps to seek out alternatives that might be closer to my own perception of quality. If those also say it is questionable then I wouldn't purchase it.


It is not that video quality is not a concern. I would obviously like to have it pristine. But I also like to enjoy films in general and I will accept lesser quality if it means enjoying films I would otherwise have ever seen. Again, video quality is all subjective. Neither of us wants to watch a film where the presentation is unacceptable. But what is unacceptable to you may not be for me.


As for commenting in this thread. I find it also useful when I read reviews to see the varying perspectives. As a result, I was just sharing mine.


As for the Criterion set. I already own it. If the BR was around $30 I would pass on it for now. But for $18 I'm willing to check it out for comparison and make my own interpretation.

 

[Robert Harris]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Elliott

I'm just reading this thread, which is funny since I just returned from Best Buy where they were actually showing this disc on all their displays to "sell" Blu-ray to people. There was a demo going on with their biggest screen and I stopped by to watch and see how others reacted to the picture. From the group of around 20 people, three ended up buying the disc and two others bought a Blu-ray player. Everyone was impressed and even those walking by the display seems to give the movie a second look and and take notice in the "quality".


I'm sure many here would just call these people idiots and say they didn't know what they were looking at, which might be true but whatever they did see was good enough to make them buy into it, which I'm sure is the main goal at Universal.


I must admit that I got a kick out of these people getting excited over a classic movie like this when most of the time this store is showing off movies from the past couple years only.

You're misinterpreting what you saw. Those folks were just amazed by Mr. Douglas' famous cleft chin. No one has arrived on the scene to take his place, and I'm not referring to the chin.


And that's what was selling Blu-rays and players. These same people will play a BBC nature epic or watch Avatar and return them for having way to much detail.


RAH

 

[marsnkc]

Originally Posted by Michael Elliott

I'm just reading this thread, which is funny since I just returned from Best Buy where they were actually showing this disc on all their displays to "sell" Blu-ray to people. There was a demo going on with their biggest screen and I stopped by to watch and see how others reacted to the picture. From the group of around 20 people, three ended up buying the disc and two others bought a Blu-ray player. Everyone was impressed and even those walking by the display seems to give the movie a second look and and take notice in the "quality".


I'm sure many here would just call these people idiots and say they didn't know what they were looking at, which might be true but whatever they did see was good enough to make them buy into it, which I'm sure is the main goal at Universal.


I must admit that I got a kick out of these people getting excited over a classic movie like this when most of the time this store is showing off movies from the past couple years only.

Michael,


Not to sound like a snob, but the people who are attracted to the smooth (in reality, 'waxy' and manipulated) look of the Spartacus Blu-ray are the same for whom the big box stores crank up the sharpness, brightness, contrast and anything else they can do to a TV to give it that extra 'punch'...!!!


Salesmen know this, so sadly you're probably right about the real 'goal' of Universal here. It depresses me that not only will those responsible not learn any lessons from the debate here, they probably ignore such forums and complaints by a Robert Harris or a Doug Pippel or an OliverK (great stuff from all!) and instead will most likely clap each other on the back and celebrate a high return on a small(er) investment, with promotions and bonuses all around and a dividend for shareholders of owner GE.


I don't know which sent the most shivers down my spine, the comment from someone on AVS that this might be the best we'll see of Spartacus or the one on Blu-ray.com that said it wasn't in the interests of studios to get it right 'the first time', that double- or triple-dipping (I'm paraphrasing, but the gist is right) is common business practice for studios. HOWEVER, he assures us that, 'They'll eventually get it right'. I asked him ' And when, pray tell, might that be?' and suggested that he must be a shareholder in Universal/GE. (I should have prefaced 'shareholder' with 'rich' and 'young').


If I'm being unduly cynical, I apologise. But if Universal/GE are the cynical ones, then their business model is a very short-sighted one. More and more people are dipping their feet into home theater and learning from forums like this. Word spreads, whether people know or understand why, about a company's business philosophy. Its success and reputation rises or falls on its attitude towards - and respect for - its customers. It's why the Costcos and Amazons and (for what immediately concerns us here - great Blu-ray product) the Sonys and Warner Bros. and Criterions of this world succeed. Look at how the formerly unassailable reputation of Toyota has been harmed (irreparably for me - I couldn't trust them again!) by short-sighted management decisions and how much it will ultimately cost them.

They should heed this advice from 'garyc' on Blu-ray.com re the Spartacus Blu-ray:


'....but to address the question, "So why bother with a remaster when when it'll probably sell anyway?":

Because you want to be fair to the film and the filmmakers

Because you love film

Because doing a good job just might make money and create good will - you never know'.

 

[Michael Elliott]

Andrew, we are certainly the minority.


You, myself, Ron and Mr. Harris could stand outside the busiest Best Buy in the world and explain all we wanted to the people walking in but I seriously doubt very many would care. I can't say I blame them since "watching a movie" is probably their main goal and I doubt they care or would understand anything that's being said in this thread and the other one.


As a film buff I'm very happy that people got interested in this classic enough to buy it. I'm not sure how I feel about the quality since I haven't viewed the disc yet but overall, I'm thrilled new people will be introduced to this film even though they might not be seeing the greatest quality that they could have with a proper release. Even if it was proper though, I'm still not sure they'd tell or notice the difference.

 

[John Skoda]

I think companies need to realize that quality is the most important factor when releasing classic films on blu. People who love these films are, by now, double and triple dipping on them. Incredible added extras or added quality are the only inducements companies have to offer to convince people to spend their extra money on items they already have.


Most do realize this, but not Universal. I bought SPARTACUS, but the result is that I've taken all future Universal releases off my "must buy" list. I'll need to read incredible reviews to change my mind on a Universal title.

 

[Reed Grele]

Just to lighten things up. We've all had a lot say about SPARTACUS on Blu Ray. Now let's see what Peter Ustinov had to say about Olivier: This is absolutely hilarious!


Peter Ustinov on Laurence Olivier (with Jack Paar)

 

[smithb]

Originally Posted by Reed Grele


[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0RFGBjG35Q&feature=related]Peter Ustinov on Laurence Olivier (with Jack Paar)

Now that was excellent. Too bad it isn't on the extras.

 

[marsnkc]

Originally Posted by Reed Grele


[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0RFGBjG35Q&feature=related]Peter Ustinov on Laurence Olivier (with Jack Paar)

Thanks Reed. I just saved that gem to my hard drive.

Ustinov is the only actor I ever wrote a fan letter to (a hundred years ago!), enclosing a crude drawing of him. I was young and naive enough to be crushed at receiving back a mere signed photograph instead of the ten-plus page letter I'd fully expected and felt was my due (seriously!). I got my revenge by switching allegiances to Brando, O'Toole and Connery , but later forgave him enough to see him in his play 'Romanoff and Juliet' in Dublin. That voice is one of the richest ever.

His take on Olivier's grand, operatic pause is hilarious. Benny Hill did a similar piece of shtick (much later - probably picking up on this idea) where he's interviewing a sophisticated pipe-smoking type who mulls a question forever, leaving Hill in a state of high anxiety, and finally answering with a monosyllable - usually just a yes or a no.

 

[warnerbro]

This is such a disappointment! Why does this look like a VHS copy! It's got a smeared look and I feel like I want my money back! What is wrong with Universal! There is no sharpness at all. What have they done to this? I would love Robert Harris' to explain to us what has been done to his beautiful restoration?

 

[Kevin EK]

Darrell, please take a look at Robert Harris' thread on this subject. I have included the link in the review on page 1 of this thread. This has been a rather sore subject on the forum...

 

[warnerbro]

Thank you very much, Kevin. I will. We all respect Mr. Harris' opinion greatly. I still can't believe Universal released this classic film looking like a smeared VHS. I concur with the opinion that it is unwatchable. And the fact that this has been released as high definition!

 

[cineMANIAC]

I'll stick with my Criterion, thank you very much. They know what they're doing, unlike Universal, who is just after people's money. No Universal Blu-rays for me

 

[Jesse Blacklow]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luisito34

I'll stick with my Criterion, thank you very much. They know what they're doing, unlike Universal, who is just after people's money. No Universal Blu-rays for me

Then you're missing out on some good-quality BDs like Dune and Carlito's Way, which came out at about the same time and look great.

 

[smithb]

A VHS copy...give me a break.


I finally got around to getting the BD and comparing it to my Criterion version. I had each in a player and went back and forth comparing the picture on a 92" screen, projecting from a Sony SXRD 1080p projector.


Is the color different? Absolutely. Would I have known which one is the preferred one based on comments by those that created it without Robert Harris telling me? Absolutely not. They are different but neither ruins my enjoyment of the film.


Is the image perfect? Absolutely not. Could it have had more detail if they didn't overdue the DNR? Yes. Does it have less detail then the Criterion as a result? No, not in my opinion.


The new BD release is obviously not everything it could have been. But for me, I will watch it over the Criterion I own because I don't find the negatives to outweigh the positives of an HD transfer with a bit more detail then the Criterion. I will keep the Criterion for all its extra's.


We obviously all have our own perspective on what is watchable and what is not. If I found this BD release unwatchable then I'd have to throw away the majority of my DVD collection because I wouldn't be able to watch them either. I think the unfortunate element here that has created the most uproar is the missed opportunity for what could have been an excellent release.

 

[Douglas Monce]

Originally Posted by smithb

A VHS copy...give me a break.


I finally got around to getting the BD and comparing it to my Criterion version. I had each in a player and went back and forth comparing the picture on a 92" screen, projecting from a Sony SXRD 1080p projector.


Is the color different? Absolutely. Would I have known which one is the preferred one based on comments by those that created it without Robert Harris telling me? Absolutely not. They are different but neither ruins my enjoyment of the film.


Is the image perfect? Absolutely not. Could it have had more detail if they didn't overdue the DNR? Yes. Does it have less detail then the Criterion as a result? No, not in my opinion.


The new BD release is obviously not everything it could have been. But for me, I will watch it over the Criterion I own because I don't find the negatives to outweigh the positives of an HD transfer with a bit more detail then the Criterion. I will keep the Criterion for all its extra's.


We obviously all have our own perspective on what is watchable and what is not. If I found this BD release unwatchable then I'd have to throw away the majority of my DVD collection because I wouldn't be able to watch them either. I think the unfortunate element here that has created the most uproar is the missed opportunity for what could have been an excellent release.

Be aware that even the Criterion release is based on the same flawed 10 year old Universal transfer that the new blu-ray is. While the color corrections on the Criterion release more accurately represent the original film, it still suffers from the softness and other flaws that the Universal DVD, HD DVD and blu-ray releases do.


I will admit that there are some films that I have bought that are less than high quality, for 2 reasons, one I just really love the film and want a copy, and two because its unlikely that another release would be coming any time soon. Having seen Spartacus in the theater in 70mm after its restoration, I'm not sure I could put up with a less than high quality release. (I do own the HD DVD but have a hard time watching it)


Doug

 

[Steve Christou]

I managed to get a peek at the new blu-ray a few days ago, as I suspected it wasn't as bad as it's been made out to be. Yes it has DNR, but I'll take a spot of DNR over watching the film through a grainstorm anyday. The colours seemed a bit off to me, but considering I was watching Spartacus on VHS for 20 years, and pan and scanned for 10 of those years, the new blu is definitely watchable. [/url]