HTF AFI 100 revote results

Discussion in 'Movies' started by Seth Paxton, Nov 9, 2002.

  1. Seth Paxton

    Seth Paxton Lead Actor

    Nov 5, 1998
    Likes Received:
    Most of you probably touched on the previous thread to know what this was about, but in case you skipped that thread figuring it didn't pertain to you I will recap the process we went through.
    1) People made sure to watch every AFI 100 film by Dec 31, 2001. This was the AFI challenge we had going. This included not just films people had not seen, but also any films they hadn't seen recently enough to comfortably discuss (stuff that they didn't remember well).
    2) Of the people that finished that part a sub-group agreed to try to redo the list. Not every person who completed the challenge wanted to do this, even if they disagreed with the AFI list. The point here is that this new list is only made up of opinions from people who believed in such a process (the ability to revote, relist or the worth of a group vote). These people were willing to put their own opinions on the line next to the AFI's.
    3) After debating the process the decision was made to automatically KEEP 75 of the original AFI films. This was done by vote. So only 25 films would be at risk of removal from the list. The reasoning was that the AFI did have many things right (did we really need to revote on Citizen Kane or Casablanca), and while any one person might disagree with 50-60 of the choices it would be tough to get everyone to agree on even 25 "wrong" films.
    4) To match this the group also selected 25 films not on the AFI 100 to possibly replace these 25 "wrong" films. Why only 25 of these? Well the point should be obvious, if we all agreed on the bottom 25 and we all agreed on the top 25 films left off, then all 25 would be replaced with these new films. That would leave the extra replacement films off the list still. So why have 30 replacement films when only 25 spots were available.
    Take time to note this aspect - had we needed to remove more than 25 films because we all agreed on AT LEAST 25 films that should have been on the list, then we should expect all 25 films voted for removal to end up off the list. IF THIS CASE IS MET, then I would reconsider the thinking that 25 was a large enough group.
    5) We took the bottom 25 AFI films and the top 25 replacement films and voted on them. Basically we picked the top 25 from this group of 50. This meant that each film had to fight it's way on to the list. A film could be voted as a bottom 25 film, yet still beat out the other 25 replacement films and end up back on the final 100 list.
    So NO FILMS were actually automatically off the list. It simply meant that the bottom 25 had to EARN THEIR WAY ON against the 25 "best" films we picked to go up against them. This meant that out final 100 COULD BE THE SAME as the AFI 100. Or it could have 25 new films. Or the most likely case, it would have some new films but less than 25.
    6) We took the 25 "winning" films from that vote (which were NOT all new as it turns out, though we replaced quite a lot of the 25) and we added them back to the top 75 films.
    This "new" group of 100 films was then voted on to create a HTF version of the AFI 100.
    Notes on eligibility
    We went with the AFI 100 YEARS, 100 films method. So no films past 1996. It makes little sense to complain about the AFI list not including a film that wasn't even eligible to make their list. Our goal was to redo the AFI with our tastes/standards, not to make a list covering totally different films.
    We allowed the same loose "American" eligibility that the AFI did. This meant that films like the Bond series remained in the mix mainly due to a studio connection or a single American star. It meant that we decided not to undo stuff like Lawrence of Arabia or Bridge on the River Kwai, which people had faulted as not truly being American films. Right or wrong, we made a choice to stand behind.
    The voting was done with RANKED lists, in which votes were WEIGHTED by placement on the list. So a #1 film on a list would get 25 points, and the 25th film would get 1 point.
    For the final 100 this was 100 points to 1 point.
    A film's score was the sum of all the points it got and films were obviously ranked by this total.
    This is opposed to an all-or-none method where you add votes without weighting, or a personal weighting method in which a person could weight each film themselves - this is similar to the regular weighted version except that the spacing between films is no longer automatic. Instead with such a method a person could consider the top 5 films equal and then have a huge gap to the next film. When you rate films at IMDb this is the method you are really using.
    The reason we didn't use that style is for simplicity. Trust me when I say it's hard enough to rank films, but even harder if you then throw in a new dynamic of deciding "how much" better a film is versus another.
    I think a dynamic weighting could have been more accurate in the end, but just not worth the trouble. The all or none method simply wasn't practical considering the size of lists and the type of ranking being done. Even the removal list would have resulted in 20 films tied with 1 vote for the last 2-3 spots or something. Ties were one thing we were trying to avoid. [​IMG]
    Phew. Hopefully that is an exhaustive enough explanation for any people with questions about the process.
    Well as you all probably know, the AFI 100 list received a great deal of debate and many complaints. So we decided to do something about it. Rather than cast stones from some safe distance (which seems a bit cheap to me), we decided to go through the process ourselves to see if our results really would be that different.
    Also, the process is a bit cathartic for some of us who didn't care for the AFI list. It gave us a chance to have our thoughts count I suppose.
    While the voters list is NOT a compilation of all the HTF, nor is it even a noteworthy subsection of it, it does represent people with 2 key requirements. They have to have seen all the films being voted on (which included the replacement films), and they have to be INTERESTED AND WILLING to go through such a voting process.
    In that sense this IS the HTF AFI list because it represents the work of the only members that gave a shit about creating such a thing. [​IMG] (well, a few new members joined HTF too late to participate. sorry to you guys)
    With that aside, let's get to the results. The next post will contain the list. I will reveal this list in groups of 10 over the next 10 weeks, starting at the BOTTOM and climbing to #1. When I add more to the list I will edit this 2nd post, but I will also bump the list with an announcement post. [​IMG]
    Beyond that we expect discussion. I think anyone should be involved, but I'm sure many of you would like to hear from the voters. To that end I think what I will do is also include any short comments from some of the voters IN THE LIST POST. Mainly I will ask for comments from either voters who ranked the film close to where it ended, and from voters who had a film ranked very far from where it ended (a film ended 96th and someone put it 20th on their list, for example).
    I will also try to make the list post look nice, but for right now it will be plain jane. I don't want anyone to have to wait any longer to start getting the results. The voters are running low on patience.
    The results represent a variety of tastes and I think the process shows that while any one person might not like the list, the point is that it represents a VARIETY of tastes. After all film is an art that is very much about group appreciation.
    A last note - THANKS to all the voters. It was a lot of work on their part and it required many of them to wait on the rest of us for a long time at points. Also, there was a spirit of teamwork in the process as we all tried to make sure we could each see the films we hadn't yet seen.
    The result of the process is that many of us were introduced to a LOT of great films we hadn't seen, even films that were just recommended for replacement but which didn't actually make the list of films we were required to see. Personally this process resulted in my purchase of The General and The Last Laugh, along with numerous rentals.
    The Voters
    Me (Seth), David Dennison, Allen Hirsch, Evan Case, Gabe D, Mark Zimmer, George Kaplan, John Knowles, Jon Huber, DonMac, Brian E, Scott Merryfield, Jay E, Jason L
    Thi Them, Brook K were with us until the last vote (ordering the final 100)
    Walter Kittle, Scott Dill and Mitty were with us early on but had to drop out.
  2. Seth Paxton

    Seth Paxton Lead Actor

    Nov 5, 1998
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    The Top 10 Films of Our AFI Revote
    #10 - Star Wars
    (AFI originally #15)
    #9 - Vertigo
    (AFI originally #61)
    #8 - Rear Window
    (AFI originally #42)
    #7 - The Wizard of Oz
    (AFI originally #6)
    #6 - It's a Wonderful Life
    (AFI originally #11)
    #5 - 2001: A Space Odyssey
    (AFI originally #22)
    #4 - Casablanca
    (AFI originally #2)
    #3 - Lawrence of Arabia
    (AFI originally #5)
    #2 - The Godfather
    (AFI originally #3)
    #1 - Citizen Kane
    (AFI originally #1)
    The total list
    1 Citizen Kane
    2 The Godfather
    3 Lawrence of Arabia
    4 Casablanca
    5 2001: A Space Odyssey
    6 It's a Wonderful Life
    7 The Wizard of Oz
    8 Rear Window
    9 Vertigo
    10 Star Wars
    11 Psycho
    12 Gone with the Wind
    13 The Maltese Falcon
    14 North by Northwest
    15 Raiders of the Lost Ark
    16 Singin' in the Rain
    17 The Godfather, Part 2
    18 The Bridge on the River Kwai
    19 Dr. Strangelove
    20 The Treasure of the Sierra Madre
    21 Chinatown
    22 Snow White
    23 Jaws
    24 Schindler's List
    25 On the Waterfront
    26 Ben-Hur
    27 The Third man
    28 The Graduate
    29 To Kill a Mockingbird
    30 City Lights
    31 Mr. Smith Goes to Washington
    32 Taxi Driver
    33 Sunset Blvd
    34 General
    35 Double Indemnity
    36 Duck Soup
    37 High Noon
    38 Apocalypse Now
    39 Clockwork Orange
    40 One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest
    41 Grapes of Wrath
    42 Goodfellas
    43 Empire Strikes Back
    44 Raging Bull
    45 King Kong
    46 Sunrise
    47 Modern Times
    48 Patton
    49 Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
    50 Apartment
    51 Some Like It Hot
    52 12 Angry Men
    53 Bride of Frankenstein
    54 Best Years of Our Lives
    55 All About Eve
    56 Fantasia
    57 All Quiet on the Western Front
    58 Annie Hall
    59 Manchurian Candidate
    60 West Side Story
    61 Sound of Music
    62 Big Sleep
    63 Sting
    64 Goldfinger
    65 Rebecca
    66 Touch of Evil
    67 Notorious
    68 M*A*S*H
    69 Bonnie and Clyde
    70 Paths of Glory
    71 Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind
    72 Pinocchio
    73 It Happened One Night
    74 Manhattan
    75 Philadelphia Story
    76 E.T.
    77 African Queen
    78 His Girl Friday
    79 Frankenstein
    80 Wild Bunch
    81 Pulp Fiction
    82 Network
    83 Bringing Up Baby
    84 Cool Hand Luke
    85 Searchers
    86 Silence of the Lambs
    87 Streetcar Named Desire
    88 Gold Rush
    89 French Connection
    90 Night of the Hunter
    91 Back to the Future
    92 American Graffiti
    93 Platoon
    94 Fargo
    95 Rocky
    96 Do the Right Thing
    97 My Fair Lady
    98 Unforgiven
    99 Stagecoach
    100 Shane
    Honorable mention films (10 that just missed our list)
    Amadeus, Toy Story, The Exorcist, The Right Stuff, Intolerance, Dr. Zhivago, Dances With Wolves, The Deer Hunter, From Here to Eternity, The Conversation
  3. Seth Paxton

    Seth Paxton Lead Actor

    Nov 5, 1998
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    A few quick notes by me.
    First, westerns obviously took a beating with us. Of course all Shane, Unforgiven, and Stagecoach DID MAKE THE CUT, so that says something.
    But it seems clear that westerns don't have the same appeal as they used to.
    Personally, I had Shane at the bottom of my list because I think it's too sappy. I had Stagecoach at 81 (characters are too 1 dimensional to me), but I had Unforgiven at 29th.
    The other 2 surprises to me were My Fair Lady (which I had around midway up) and Do the Right Thing (which I had at 27th).
    I'm not sure why DtRT doesn't have the appeal, perhaps some voters who rated it low can tell us. Obviously Sight and Sound just rated it very high among films of the last 25 years. BUT, there is one key thing here, it MADE OUR LIST which is an improvement over the AFI IMO. [​IMG]
    Back to the Future made it onto our list (which also surprised me) but seems a bit to pop art to rank any higher than it did. I will say that it does deserve respect for how well organized the script/narrative was. The film plays smooth and fast and is excellent in establishing the narrative goals throughout the film so that each step required of the protagonists seems rather sensible to the viewer despite the fact that it's all a bunch of goofy SF with little reality to the science aspect. [​IMG]
  4. Allen Hirsch

    Allen Hirsch Supporting Actor

    Jan 29, 1999
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    Thank you again, Seth, for taking the time to compile all the votes and lists.

    Checking my personal bottom 10, I see that 4 of my bottom 10 appear in the HTF re-vote bottom 10 - not a terribly strong correlation, but not bad, either.

    I want to also second some of Seth's comments.
    I'm a more knowledgable film-viewer now for having seen a LOT of older, terrific movies that I'd never seen, and even some newer ones that hadn't appealed enough to me to see before. I have a much greater appreciation for Buster Keaton and Charlie Chaplin, for example, by seeing their range of classics that made the list. (I'd only seen snippets or clips before.) I also have come to respect a number of directors' work from the '30s through the '50s much more deeply by seeing more of their finest films.
  5. Allen Hirsch

    Allen Hirsch Supporting Actor

    Jan 29, 1999
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    Biggest "misses" for me in the HTF bottom 10 were My Fair Lady, which I had 65th, and Platoon, 54th.

    Upon further reflection, I'm not surprised Platoon finished much lower, but MFL that low does still surprise me some.
  6. george kaplan

    george kaplan Executive Producer

    Mar 14, 2001
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    Just a few quick comments about the bottom 10 and my voting.

    I'm not sure how much of a beating westerns really took. There are more westerns than these 3 on the list, and I don't know where they ended up. I ranked all 3 of these higher than the bottom 10, but not that high (Unforgiven was my highest of these 3 - #55). On the other hand there were 2 westerns in my bottom 10 that aren't in the final bottom 10. I think there's a lot of disagreement about WHICH westerns are good and which are bad.

    Back to the Future is my highest ranked film in the bottom 10. I ranked it at #20. I think it's a great film, and I think like all comedies, it takes a hit for not being a 'serious' film.

    Which brings me to Do the Right Thing. Like all dramas, I think this gets extra points by most people for being 'serious'.

    I am quite pleased to see this in the bottom 10. I ranked it dead last on my list. Why? Well, I don't know how much we want to get into this on this thread, but I think Do the Right Thing is a racist film with a racist message. The message is that everyone (black, white, whatever) is racist, and that's our true nature and admiting it and acting on it is 'the right thing to do'. I disagree with this completely. Is there still racism in this country? Hell yes (as this film proves), but we've made great strides and I'll take uplifting messages about race over racist ones any day. If you want to deal with racism, give me Roots which shows that being racist is NOT the right thing to do. Better yet, show me films that kick racism's ass just by showing it to be overcome, in other words, any film in which black characters are just characters, not black characters (this could include everything from Star Trek to Die Hard).

    Others obviously see a great film there with a meaningful message about racism. We're just going to have to disagree about this. Anyway, that's why I ranked it last.
  7. Evan Case

    Evan Case Screenwriter

    Jan 22, 2000
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    On my AFI list, really only the bottom five or so were ones that I flat-out felt were "overrated." I'm not sure if this is a product of me being either too forgiving or easy-to-please, or just that the top 95 are actually all decent-to-classic films.
    My bottom 25 or so were the other ones I'd argue somewhat against AFI inclusion, but I can generally understand why my 75-95-ranked films made the list, even if I don't completely agree.
    Unforgiven, Shane, and Stagecoach were my lowest-ranked westerns, coming in at 91, 90, and 82, respectively. I certainly have nothing against Westerns, and several were quite high on my list, but none of these fall into my upper echelon of the genre (despite their many good points). I felt Unforgiven rambled at times, which offset some superb characterizations; Shane had the kid, who single-handedly works to undermine an otherwise mytho-classic (did I just make that word up?) tale brimming with menace, humor, sexual tension, and jaw-dropping photography; and Stagecoach, well, I don't see any glaring weaknesses in the film--it's just a case of too many films I prefer also having to be ranked. FWIW, I probably would've ranked higher Dances with Wolves, Rio Bravo, Red River, My Darling Clementine and some of the Leone films had they made the list.
    My Fair Lady was dead last on my list. FWIW, three of my bottom four were Best Picture-winning musicals from the '60s. I feel no connection to these films. The glossing over characterizations in place of music would be fine if I liked the songs (as in, say, 42nd Street or Top Hat), but I really can't stand that particular style. I have to give credit to Rex Harrison though for at least making some of the parts watchable. However, I actually probably downgraded the film more harshly because we get a glimpse of what the film could've been without all of the overblown production numbers. Feel free to disagree and let me hear about it, though.
    Do the Right Thing was the last film I had to see to qualify for the vote, and I was for the most part quite impressed. Its strongest features were the performances and how it manages to actually feel like a sweat-drenched summer day in the big city. Still, I had it 83 on my list because I felt that the verisimilitude so strong through the first half began to evaporate as the day wore on and I was unable to buy several of the character motivations that led to the finale. Nevertheless, I found it generally compelling and very sound, technically-speaking.
    I had Rocky at 52, Fargo at 71. I love how the true strength of Rocky is actually the character relationships, anchored by (gasp!) superb work by Stallone, who's never done anything else remotely as good. The sweet, Marty-esque romance is worth a thousand Ivan Dragos and his ilk. It's a movie I don't think I'll ever grow tired of (and my close connection to Philly sports doesn't hurt!). Fargo just got caught up in the shuffle. It's a great film and one of the Coens' many potential classics, but I just couldn't find room for it higher up.
    Platoon used to be in my top 25, but I think over-watching it (did a massive paper on it for a Vietnam film class last semester) sort of burned me out on it. I still like it--ranked it 64--but I don't find its rewatchability to be quite what it could be. I don't know... kind of tough to describe what happened to my feelings about it.
    American Graffiti was my highest-ranked of these ten, coming in at 35. I don't think I can say an ill word about it. Genius sound design (virtually all of the music save the beginning and ending is presented as part of the diegesis), truly hilarious performances and sequences, and a story that seems as improvised as any in the French New Wave canon. And yet for being a story about some kids doing nothing, it raises some fairly compelling issues about fate and how we control it (or don't). Oh yeah, and it also has probably the best "Songtrack" in film history. Required viewing for all "Lucas is a hack" proponents.
    Back to Future I had at 57, but it's probably as perfect a picture as one could hope for given the loopiness of the story idea. Fox and Lloyd are perfectly cast and make a great comic team. One of the few films I could conceivably watch endlessly, also very high on my nostalgia meter (it was the first film my family ever recorded at home, and I still remember pausing the recording because I had to go to the bathroom [I was 6 or 7], my mom not knowing how to fix it for twenty minutes, and having the next 6+ years of BTTF viewing involving a jump cut from "Last night, Darth Vader visited me in my room," to Marty and Elaine pulling up outside the dance--even to this day, the section between those feels like reinserted deleted scenes to me). So why only 57? Hard to say. Few above it entertain me as much, but almost all of them affect me more from an emotional, intellectual, or technical standpoint. Unlike some others, "entertainment" is but one of several components that factor into my "favorite" film list. Obviously, those near the top do the best job of combining all factors (for me, of course). Were it just strictly the entertainment factor, BTTF would have a spot reserved in my Top 15 for sure.
    And that, ladies and gentlemen, is what we refer to as a long freaking post. Hopefully it served to illuminate some of my choices.
    Even more importantly, I hope it generates some discussion so that my throbbing fingers don't pulse in vain. Feel free to agree whole-heartedly or rip me a new one [​IMG]. I look forward to a hearty discussion.
  8. george kaplan

    george kaplan Executive Producer

    Mar 14, 2001
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    Two more things.
    First and most important, I'd like to thank Seth for having this idea and all the hard work that went into it. I'm looking forward to seeing how the rest of the list develops.
    Second, responding to Evan re: sixties musicals. I think a lot more highly of these than you do. The 3 films ranked on my list between 36 and 44. The bottom line for me when it comes to musicals is the music, and I think the music of all 3 is great, and that the lyrics of 2 of the 3 are great. As a matter of fact, on my personal top 100 list, I have 6 60s musicals. Interestingly, the 3 on our HTF list I rank lower on my own 100 list, but that's just a sign of how many films there are on the HTF list that I don't think very highly of, and how many great movies are missing from the HTF list in my opinion. [​IMG]
    I don't know if you can do this or not, but I'd be interested in some summary statistics. For example Shane was the lowest vote getter. What was it's highest vote?
  9. Seth Paxton

    Seth Paxton Lead Actor

    Nov 5, 1998
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  10. Seth Paxton

    Seth Paxton Lead Actor

    Nov 5, 1998
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    Max and min rankings for these films (I love XL, these 2 stats were done for all 100 films in 2 seconds)
    Highest rankings, lowest ranking
    #100 - Shane (54th by Jason), (100th by Seth)
    #99 - Stagecoach (41st by John K), (100th by Gabe)
    #98 - Unforgiven (29th by Seth), (95th by Jay E)
    #97 - My Fair Lady (44th by George), (100th by Evan)
    #96 - Do the Right Thing (27th by Seth), 100th by George)
    #95 - Rocky (26th by David), (100th by Jay E)
    #94 - Fargo (7th by Gabe), (97th by John K)
    #93 - Platoon (22nd by Brian E), (99th by Gabe)
    #92 - American Graffiti (35th by Evan), (100th by John K)
    #91 - Back to the Future (20th by Jason and George), (99th by Jay and Seth)
    No films got to the bottom or top with just one vote.
    Here is the average rank (which is basically just the total score), the MEDIAN POINT (point with equal number of scores above and below), and the Standard Deviation (which shows how varied the rankings were on each film)
    #100 - Shane (80.3, 87.5, 16.28)
    #99 - Stagecoach (78.1, 80, 15.52)
    #98 - Unforgiven (76.3, 82.5, 18.96)
    #97 - My Fair Lady (75.3, 77, 18.03)
    #96 - Do the Right Thing (75.2, 85, 25.63)
    #95 - Rocky (72.6, 80, 25.36)
    #94 - Fargo (70.6, 78.5, 28.91)
    #93 - Platoon (70.4, 71.5, 23.82)
    #92 - American Graffiti (70.0, 71, 20.02)
    #91 - Back to the Future (69.8, 77, 28.65)
    Obviously the averages will improve with each film as we go up the list.
    The Median though give a better gauge at where a film was generally ranked. This helps counter any extreme votes that pull a ranking up or down.
    Films with lower deviation mean that their votes tended to be more closely grouped around the average than one with a higher deviation. BTTF and Fargo have fairly high deviations, ranked 15th and 13th respectively.
    However, 5 of these films rank toward the bottom in deviation, which seems to imply a general consensus that they are placed quite correctly.
    Stagecoach (3rd), Shane (4th), My Fair Lady (9th), Unforgiven (12th), American Graffiti (16th) are those 5 films.
    By median, 8 of the 10 films still rank as the bottom 8 films. However Platoon (13th) and American Graffiti (14th) were not quite in the bottom 10 going by the median vote. They both had moderate deviations, but their problem was that the deviation came more on the bottom side of their median point (meaning positive votes tended to be close to the median point, but votes below the median tended to be much lower).
    You should never ask an engineer for stats. [​IMG] :p)
  11. Jason L.

    Jason L. Second Unit

    Jul 12, 1999
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    Kudos to Seth for the great work.

    I, for one, am happy to see American Graffiti and My Fair Lady get the rankings they deserve.

    My Fair Lady is way too long, overblown, and just plain boring.

    I've never understood the praise that American Graffiti has received. It is a flim where "nothing happens" [similar to Dazed and Confused]. The only thing that I can think of is that it is a pleasant nostalgia trip for the baby boomer generation, which probably makes up the majority of the AFI voters. Maybe 20 years from now The Breakfast Club will crack the AFI 100!!
  12. george kaplan

    george kaplan Executive Producer

    Mar 14, 2001
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    I disagree with you about these two films (I rank them both in the 40s), but I have different reactions to your reasoning.

    I have to admit I don't really understand this. I hear this criticism of films (especially 2001), and I sit there and I can write out a synopsis of the plot and it's clear that quite a lot happened. The closest film I've ever seen where very little happens is probably Cries & Whispers, and even that film has a plot (albeit a very, very boring one IMO).

    I guess for me I find tons of films boring, and I thinkt that's a perfectly valid critique of a film, whereas I've never (at least yet) run across a film where 'nothing happens'.
  13. Jon Huber

    Jon Huber Agent

    May 9, 1999
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    This sure was fun. Many thanks for Seth putting the whole revote thing together. This whole process has completely changed the way that I look at films. I got into home theater 10 years ago because I was a fan of the gear. Now I can truly say I am a fan of the films themselves. When I decided to join the AFI challenge in 2001 I was ashamed to admit that I had only seen 21 of them and a few of them I needed to revisit. I had alot of films to watch to complete the challenge and I am glad I did it. I now have a seemingly endless list of films that I want to see. These days I am more inclined spend the evening watching TCM or renting a classic film vs. the latest box office hit from the new release rack.
    No real outliers on the bottom 10 compared to my list (though I know they are coming). The highest I had any of the bottom 10 ranked was 73, though only 3 were in my bottom 10 (Do The Right Thing #99, Fargo #94, and Unforgiven #92)
    Not too surprised with anything that was revealed so far. IMO My Fair Lady is the worst of the "60's musicals" on the list, I have the other two ranked much higher and would liked to have seen a title like The Music Man on the list rather than MFL. I found it way too long and boring, but my 8 and 10 year old daughters watch it over and over and seem to love it. Go figure!
    I probably would have ranked Back to the Future in the top 10 if I was rating on pure entertainment value. This is a film that I watch over and over and never tire of it. When I surf across it on TV, I usually end up putting in my LD and watching again, but when it came time to rank it I couldn't find any room for it any further up than #77.
    Ditto to what George said about Do The Right Thing. I had a hard time deciding whether to rank it or Pulp Fiction dead last and PF won.
    Looking forward to the rest of the list and the resulting discussion.
  14. Seth Paxton

    Seth Paxton Lead Actor

    Nov 5, 1998
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    BTW, buried in the Shawshank discussion thread I have talked about some of the positives I see in Pulp Fiction while comparing it to Shawshank.
    I think you guys that are down on PF might like to read it here
    I don't like MFLady nearly as much as West Side Story (which as a musical is so much more multi-dimensional in combining set pieces, songs and choreography, which is too often forgotten). MFL does have some great songs and teriffic art direction/set pieces. For musicals songs and production value count for a lot I think. They simply have different goals from dramatic narrative (not unlike comedy, etc).
    Also, any non-participants are fully invited to jump in with comments now. This is not a thread for voters only in any way. You can bitch about our list just as much as the AFI original. [​IMG]
  15. Seth Paxton

    Seth Paxton Lead Actor

    Nov 5, 1998
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  16. David Dennison

    David Dennison Second Unit

    Sep 10, 2001
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    I also want to start by thanking Seth for coordinating this whole effort, and I want to add how much fun this process has been. I think I had seen around 60-70 of the films on this list prior to beginning the challenge, and it was well-worth seeing the rest (okay maybe one or two exceptions).

    My brief thoughts on #91-100.

    I agree with Shane (#95), Do the Right Thing (#99), and Platoon (#91). Other movies not too far off for me were Stagecoach (#78), My Fair Lady (#81, but I have a wide range of rankings from 6-81 for the three 1960's musicals), and American Graffiti (#64).

    I was somewhat disappointed in the low rankings for Unforgiven (#52) and BTTF (#49). I think Unforgiven is the second best western after The Wild Bunch. BTTF I enjoy much more than my ranking shows. I'll take some criticism from George for the ranking as I probably under value comedies. I think the fact that we are using the same criteria as AFI for ranking (i.e. "best" movies not favorite movies) took some of the steam out of the rankings.

    Fargo (#24) and Rocky (#26) were my two biggest disappointments in the bottom 10. I think Fargo gets better every time I watch it. I have always thought of it as a bunch of smaller, comedy scenes ("I think I'm gonna barf", the DLR tag, selling the car with the factory-installed true-coat sealant,...) that are great individually, but together they create a very moving drama with a powerful ending.

    Rocky is just one of my personal favorites. Besides being a great drama and character piece as Evan describes it, Rocky is the best underdog-achieves-victory sports movie ever (and I love Hoosiers, Rudy, etc.).

    By the way, Seth, I like seeing the statistics also.
  17. Brian E

    Brian E Screenwriter

    Aug 12, 2000
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    The number following these is where I ranked them. I'd be happy to go into more depth if anyone wants. Just not right now when it's so late.

    #100 - Shane - 68

    #99 - Stagecoach - 69

    #98 - Unforgiven - 90

    #97 - My Fair Lady - 66

    #96 - Do the Right Thing - 59

    #95 - Rocky - 85

    #94 - Fargo - 92

    #93 - Platoon - 22

    #92 - American Graffiti - 57

    #91 - Back to the Future - 74

    Also to Seth. Thanks for the time and effort, and at times patience put into taking on the organization of this project.

    I'd like to hear from other HTF members as to how they like our list.

    I have an appreciation as to how hard a task it was for the AFI to put their list together and have found some classic films that I now love and had never even thought of giving a look before we did this. Sunrise for instance which ended up high on my final list.
  18. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator

    Dec 9, 1998
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    Real Name:

    I don't know about that????? I almost responded to some of George's comments about Do the Right Thing, but I bit my tongue because I didn't want to hijack this thread.

  19. george kaplan

    george kaplan Executive Producer

    Mar 14, 2001
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    I think a civilized discussion would be worthwhile, and not hijacking the thread. Then again, I know there's been threads about this movie already, so maybe we're just rehashing old ground. Still, I'd like to hear why you don't think it's a racist flick.
  20. Jay E

    Jay E Cinematographer

    May 30, 2000
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    I don't remember my list exactly (I didn't save a copy), but I do remember putting Back to the Future at #99 and Rocky at #100. I find Back to the Future to be an enjoyable comedy but it should never have made this list. The only reason it did is because there's a tendency to overrate films from the 1980's here at the forum (since these are the films that a majority of the forum grew up with). I also can't believe that no Preston Sturges film made the list as I would rate at least 5 of his films higher than Back to the Future.
    Rocky is a film that I find extremely overrated. I wouldn't place this film in the top 500, let alone 100. I enjoyed the film growing up but now when I watch it I wince at the cardboard, stereotyped characters and probably some of the phoniest fight scenes ever put on film.
    Of the other films, the only one which I feel deserves a better ranking is Do the Right Thing, but I didn't expect it to get out of the bottom 10 so I'm not too disappointed.

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