HT subwoofer (1 Viewer)

[Relic1Golf]

I am interested in buying a new subwoofer for music and HT use. has anyone had any personal experience with the ML dynamo 700 or Goldenear forcefield 4 subwoofers? I might be asking too much from one subwoofer but I was interested in a musically accurate sub that reaches down to low to mid 20s for movies. the FF4 is reported at 14-250hz and the ML dynamo is down to 24hz at -3db.
the SVS pb12-nsd seems to check all the boxes, Im just concerned with the DSP eq and limiter it may have lost its musicality from an hifidelity standpoint.

 

[vidiot33]

Musicality is somewhat subjective, but I think the most nuanced, musical subs out there are servo subs.They have significantly less distortion than conventional subs and can bring out subtle frequencies cleanly. Can't comment directly on the subs you referenced, but after much research, I went with Rythmik's. In my opinion, best bang for the buck and servo driven. I'd be cautious about buying components by the numbers...

 

[Robert_J]

If you want accuracy, then you want a driver with a low inductance motor structure. How do you know that feature when you buy a complete sub? You don't. The SVS Ultra has it because the driver they use in that sub has an underhung design (top plate of the magnet is thicker than the winding length of the voice coil). As the winding lenghth on the coil gets longer, the inductance will rise. That's when you get to even hung (rare) and over hung (most common) sub designs. To lower inductance with those designs, designers will add things like copper shorting rings into the magnetic gap.

As for DSP, I use it. No matter how accurate your sub is, there will be room interaction and you need some way to tame the peaks and lift the valleys in the frequency response.

 

[Relic1Golf]

yeah I know, specs alone are somewhat arbitrary. to listen to the ML, I would have to drive 4hrs north and the Goldenear would be about 3hrs east. SVS is internet only but they have a pretty good return policy.
I was looking at building another DIY sub but the prices for the ones I listed are low enough it would almost be pointless. From what I understand servo technology is somewhat outdated and Rythmic is one of the few manufacturers still using it. everyone else seems to be going with some sort of DSP controls or digital amplifier, either one isnt really my cup of tea. I would rather go with a classic A/B power amp and a good solid built driver for high fidelity but that doesnt really dig down deep for LF effects.
as far as distortion, some distortion is good. if its excessive coloration or in the case of a ported cabinet excessive port noise that can be a bit distracting. as with everything though there is always a compromise.

 

[Relic1Golf]

the peaks and valleys are a part of musical dynamics, its nice to introduce a little EQing if they are out of control but Im not a fan of SVS approach of EQing everything from 20-200hz ruler flat and taking away dynamics all together.

 

[Robert_J]

the peaks and valleys are a part of musical dynamics, its nice to introduce a little EQing if they are out of control but Im not a fan of SVS approach of EQing everything from 20-200hz ruler flat and taking away dynamics all together.

I had a 14db peak at 55hz caused by voice coil inductance. When my MCACC was run to set speaker levels, it would use that peak when setting. Music sounded great but action movies were pathetic. After getting sine waves to measure flat from 100hz to 17hz (+ or - 3db), MCACC set the sub up completely different. Music is great as well as action movies.

 

[Relic1Golf]

Ive been getting into DIY audio recently and DIY sub is not out of the question. I believe Peerless and Scanspeak use the same copper shorting rings and are praised in the DIY community, my concern is limited power handling and max excursion at 140w in a sealed enclosure.

 

[Relic1Golf]

from what I gather you really cant use the same applications for a music subwoofer and HT sub unless some sort of DSP or servo control is applied, use 2 subwoofers to even out bass response and gain SPL, or spend 2-3000$ on a single subwoofer?
or perhaps use a single 15-18" driver in a ported cabinet and try to figure out how to match it with the rest of the speakers to sound good with music?

 

[Robert_J]

Everyone has thier own opinion on this and mine is that an accurate sub is an accurate sub no matter what material is being played through it. I want it to reproduce exactly what the sound engineer intended whether it is a song or an action movie. Heck, I watch a lot of concerts in my home theater? So what would those be? Movies or music?

My sub drivers are older 15" TC-3000's - https://web.archive.org/web/20070402025330/http://www.tcsounds.com/tc3000.htm%C2 They are a brute of a sub designed primarily for the car audio world. But with a little EQ, they sound incredible in the home where you can listen with a more critical ear. My sealed subs can play anything from cannon shots in Master and Commander to an acoustic concert with an upright bass.

Basically, DSP isn't bad. The electronics have progressed to a point that you don't hear anything unusual. They will correct imperfections in the way the sub interacts with the room. Sealed vs. ported and 1 vs 2 subs are different conversations. I chose sealed because I don't have a subsonic filter on my pro amp. Newer pro amps have them via DSP. I chose 2 subs but they are co-located so they act like a single, larger sub.

 

[Relic1Golf]

I have an Eminence Lab12 on the way for a sealed DIY project, if it sounds pretty good then my search is over. if it doesnt than I might be heading up north to listen to a few ML subwoofers.

 

[Robert_J]

The LAB 12 is a tried and true sub but not a great value. The technology behind it is late 90's. But if that's all that is available in your area, then go for it. We normally tailor our answers for specific locations but you haven't completed that part of your profile.

 

[Relic1Golf]

I live in Ia, theres a Magnolia store up north I go to every few months to get my hifi fix. I was going to get a Peerless xxls12 but it reachs max excursion at 200w in a 2ft3 sealed enclosure. I guess if I put it in a ported cabinet tuned to 22hz with a highpass filter it would sound pretty good but my amp and AVR doesnt have one.

 

[Relic1Golf]

speaking of the SVS pb12 has a peerless xxls12 driver and a 400w class d amp with onboard DSP, I believe its tuned to 20hz. I would probably pay close to or more than $700 for the same specs.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

I have an Eminence Lab12 on the way for a sealed DIY project, if it sounds pretty good then my search is over. if it doesnt than I might be heading up north to listen to a few ML subwoofers.

I bet you find the Lab12 fights "above its weight" so to speak. The eminence labs are really good and perform far beyond what their "specs" may indicate. It's no coincidence that Mark uses a variant on his submersive and it is often regarded as one of the best sounding subs out there..Tom V.

 

[Robert_J]

I agree with Tom that the Lab 12 is a great sub buy there are better in that price range. SVS did not use Peerless drivers. Their original low end model was sourced from Destijl Engineering while their Plus and Ultra drivers came from TC Sounds. In fact I had a pair of plus drivers and one Ultra. Under the ultra's magnet boot was a Audiomobile MASS label. They currently build their drivers in house.

 

[Robert_J]

I agree with Tom that the Lab 12 is a great sub buy there are better in that price range. SVS did not use Peerless drivers. Their original low end model was sourced from Destijl Engineering while their Plus and Ultra drivers came from TC Sounds. In fact I had a pair of plus drivers and one Ultra. Under the ultra's magnet boot was a Audiomobile MASS label. They currently build their drivers in house.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

I agree with Tom that the Lab 12 is a great sub buy there are better in that price range.SVS did not use Peerless drivers. Their original low end model was sourced from Destijl Engineering while their Plus and Ultra drivers came from TC Sounds. In fact I had a pair of plus drivers and one Ultra. Under the ultra's magnet boot was a Audiomobile MASS label. They currently build their drivers in house.


I'm not sure what the cost was for the lab12 so you may very well be correct. I just often see folks under estimated that basic "lab" motor because of its relatively small "Xmax" number. But in our tests the lab15 easily outgunned motors claiming well >20mm of xmax. It is just a really, really good design. Jim and I have spent quite a bit of time with multiple variations of the Lab15 as we almost used it in the Triax woof. Don't be surprised to see us using custom lab variants at some point in the future. We just loved everything about it. Well, except the pricing..Tom V.

 

[Robert_J]

The LAB12 runs around $160 for the average user. I haven't used it but I have used its cousins the Adire Shiva and Dayton DVC with great results. The current bargain sub is the Infinity Reference 1260 for about $65.I wish I could get custom variants of subs but the only thing available to us outside of the industry is PSI. The owner built a lot of the base SVS drivers while he worked for Destijl.

 

[Relic1Golf]

theres a review on audioholics for the SB12/PB12-nsd where they took the subwoofer apart. the driver appears to have the same basket and bump on the backplate for a shorting ring as the Peerless driver, unless they reconed it, theres a striking resemblence between the two. it looks as if BK elec did the same thing for the xxls400 but they use the Lab12 for the monolith plus. I was going to order from BK electronics but they dont ship to the US .

 

[Robert_J]

http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/pb12-nsd/pb12-nsd-introductionThat is the driver built in-house by SVS. If I'm not mistaken it was designed by Stephen Ponte after leaving TC Sounds for SVS. You can always ask the V in SVS since he posted above.