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HSU VTF3R or SVS PB2 ISD (1 Viewer)

CurtisSC

Screenwriter
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Messages
1,412
Paul....understood and agreed.

and those two $600 subs are just about equal in size as well.

As much high value these to companies offer, I think this price point will draw a lot of attention.
 

Zack_R

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Nov 4, 2002
Messages
220
OK...with all that aside, I was wondering if there was one test that would be possible for you to do. Can you measure how fast the driver starts and stops when it is given a signal?
I haven't seen a test measure for this, unless it was called something else and I missed it. But I really think this is important. I'm thinking that both subs will measure a very similar frequency sweep at 80-90 dbs whether in room or anechoic at less than 10% THD. But I also think they will sound a little different on certain music within the same db range. THis, I think will be more of a speaker differnce (or the materials that make up the speaker, than amp.

Another consideration is that each amp may have an eq boost, albeit slight, to achieve it's frequency response goal. How much of boost, if any, that drains power at high spl would be interesting to note to some (me). I would like to see you measure output while playing your DVD's (in your PB2+ review) to see what output you get. Although your ground THD test may reveal this as a factor if one sub distorts at say 30 Hz but can play 3 or more dbs louder without reaching THD at 30 Hz.
 

Rick Hilst

Grip
Joined
Oct 26, 2003
Messages
16
Unforrtunately, there are some unpleasant things I have to deal with before I get to the heart of this posting.

you have the stones to turn around and criticize my proposal of instrumented testing?
Did I criticize your proposal of instrumented testing? What exactly did I say that you interpreted this way?

The problem that I have with your approach has nothing to do with the instrumented testing that you propose. In fact, with my limited knowledge in this area, it seems like a pretty good approach.

However, I do have major problems with the overall scientific methodology and this is why I made the statements that I did.

There are other statements made that I could address. However, I think these are sufficient to address the major issues.

Now, for the meat of what I want to say.

Ed has stated some valid criticisms of me about getting off the sidelines and contributing to this effort. I will be glad to do this (as I have stated before) but only if the concerns that I see are addressed.

First of all, I consider myself to be an expert in a number of areas. However, that expertise does not extend to subwoofers or testing audio equipment. I will be the first to admit that there are many people, including the people contributing to this e-mail thread, that possess far greater knowledge than I do in this arena. Therefore, I will not presume to judge the technical aspect of this analysis (although I am a very technical guy in other areas).

One of the areas I do consider myself to be somewhat of an expert in is in how to perform scientific studies. The expertise that I possess in this area is what lead me to the statements that I made earlier.

For example, one of the areas that has (at least partially)invalidated virtually every professional audio review I've read (and, at this point in time, I've read a lot) is the question of whether the review was "unbiased". I know of only two ways to guarantee this (there may be others): (1) have the analysis performed by a reputable independent laboratory or (2) engage the full support of all parties involved and get their sign-off on the fairness of the analysis at every stage. The first of these options is probably not viable due to cost. Therefore, I think the only option that is viable is to get complete engagement of the affected parties.

A general invitation to the masses isn't going to cut it.

I have a number of concerns in other areas having to do with the methodology being followed, which I will be glad to express. However, as this point in time, I am still smarting from the attacks on my personal character.
 

Sasha_G

Agent
Joined
Mar 7, 2002
Messages
45
Folks,

As much as I want to just “go for it” and do a shootout, I’m not sure if the tempers and egos of forum members will hold up long enough.

After talking with Dr. Hsu about it, we are interested in doing a shootout around June. It will take some time to set up the criteria we want, and who will do it. Edward seems to have very nice equipment. However, we want to have a say in who does it. Some of the names we have discussed are Tom Nousaine, Guy Kuo and Stacey Spears, among others. Paul from Home Theater Spot is helping act as a go-between now to set things up. He is interested in including the likes of Velodyne and Sunfire.

We are coming out with a number of new or improved subwoofers in the coming months, and we want to make sure our “latest” is included if we go through all the trouble.

Informal comparisons go on all the time. However, we will support a formal one only when it occurs in a mutually agreeable way, which I think can happen.
 

Zack_R

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Nov 4, 2002
Messages
220
Therefore, I think the only option that is viable is to get complete engagement of the affected parties.
What if the affected parites (I'm assuming you mean HSU and SVS) can only agree on one type of test? And what if the test is only in room 6 feet from the sub at 85 dbs on 1/3 octave test tones? That won't tell you much. I'd rather see a battery of test performed and formulate my own conclusions based on the data presented.

Ed's review will likely rival just about any subwoofer review I've seen lately. The most recent professional PB2+ reviews have little to no objective measures, not even a simply frequency sweep plot. I have yet to find one subwoofer review where I thought the holy grail of subwoofer review techniques were employed. If enough reviews of a given subwoofer are performed some consistencies about the sub will surface.

In the end, if a reviewer declares a particular sub the winner you don't have to agree. As long as the test shows enough objective measures, you may weigh a certain criteria more or less important than the reviewer did and therefore come to a different conclusion.
 

Rick Hilst

Grip
Joined
Oct 26, 2003
Messages
16
It's perfectly OK if someone wants to perform an analysis however they choose. I just don't want my name associated with it and I will be one of those who challenges how "scientific" the analysis was.

As far as your concerns about whether the parties involved get to set the terms, that would not be how I would do it. I would define the tests to be performed (with, of course, input from the affected parties) and then pursue making compromises to those tests to satisfy the concerns of the affected parties.
 

Edward J M

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Messages
2,031
Rick:

Yes, you did touch a nerve.

My comments were not intended to be mean-spirited and, if they came across that way, I apologize.
Thank you, and I also apologize. Let's bury the hatchet.

As far as where this particular test goes - I don't care anymore. It has quickly turned into a lose-lose proposition for all involved, and I'm dropping the offer. I've got better things to do.

I'll test my own PB2+ with my equipment and possibly offer that up as an addendum to my original PB2+ review.

If I ever upgrade to a better SVS, I'll do another review with the new test methods.

And if I can get my hands on a local HSU sub, I'll put it through the paces and post that data too.

Regards,

Ed
 

Zack_R

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Nov 4, 2002
Messages
220
I'll test my own PB2+ with my equipment and possibly offer that up as an addendum to my original PB2+ review.
I'll be looking forward to this. I know you have a better mic than the Rat Shack but I would be interested in seeing you plot the 1/12 octaves using the rat shack meter as compared to the reading with your mic. Just to see how accurate the rat shack really is.
 

Rick Hilst

Grip
Joined
Oct 26, 2003
Messages
16
I was prepared to drop this but you got me riled up again.

Since no one else offered up any other test methods, your statement can easily be inferred as a direct attack on my character.
What?!!! A direct attack on your character? Give me a break.

Calling someone a hypocrite and then saying they deserved it is attacking one's character. Challenging one's testing method, which, as I explained, is not even what I was doing, is in no way an attack on one's character (at worst, it's an attack on the approach they are advocating).

Equivalencing your actions with my actions simply infuriates me.

What I did, challenge your methodology, and what you did, calling me a hypocrite and saying I deserved it, are not even in the same ballpark!

I strongly resent your assertion that I was attacking your character. I was taught a long time ago that you criticize the action, not the person.
 

Edward J M

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Messages
2,031
I know you have a better mic than the Rat Shack but I would be interested in seeing you plot the 1/12 octaves using the rat shack meter as compared to the reading with your mic. Just to see how accurate the rat shack really is.
Zack - the RS meter is C-Weighted. It needs correction for the C-Weighted scale. In addition, it needs correction for its own inherent inaccuracies.

The B&K sound meter is also C-Weighted and needs the same C-weighted correction factors to obtain an unweighted response. But it is considerably more accurate than the RS meter.

For example, the pure (theoretical) C-weighted correction factor at 16 Hz is 8.4 dB. The RS meter correction factor at 16 Hz is 11.5 dB - a difference of 3 dB. That 3 dB difference is the error introduced by the RS meter. The B&K does not introduce any appreciable error other than that intentionally prescribed by the C-Weighted curve.

The Behringer ECM8000, despite being advertised as a full range measurment mic, also introduces error into the response curve, even though it is not weighted per se. I have seen no less than five FR sweeps for the ECM8000 against a known NBS-traceable reference standard, and all five of them started to trail off below 25 Hz and were all about 5-8 dB down at 10 Hz. And they were all somewhat different looking curves. This demonstrates the need to professionally calibrate any measurement mic against a known absolute reference in order to correct for its response error. Including your own specific mic preamp is also a good idea, since preamps do not have perfectly flat responses either.
 
Joined
May 1, 2003
Messages
39
Rick: Easy! Can't you just let the whole thing drop? I just caught up on this thread and the number and direction of the posts over the past two days has ben amazing. A day and a half ago we had a positive discussion towards getting some real measurements (that most people on this board would like to see, I would guess) and had some positive support from folks at both SVS and Hsu. Now, after the flame war, Hsu is saying they'd rather not participate, and Ed even decided to can the offer. It's a damn shame to see the whole idea ruined, if you ask me.

Yes, Ed's response to you was harsh, but I'd probably respond the same way. He offered to put forth quite a bit of his own time (and use $$$ worth of equipment) to generate data for the good of the community and was attacked for it. It's only natural to get a bit defensinve when you get blindsided like that. A few posts ago he apologized and you can't even accept that. Yeesh.
 

Robb Roy

Supporting Actor
Joined
Jul 15, 2002
Messages
711
I think it's high time this thread was brought back around to what's really important.

Ed: Ship several (or as many as you can spare) cases of the Shea's to me as soon as possible. Also, tell the Web developers there to write a dang cookie remembering my age when I return to the site; scrolling down the year column for my age once was bad enough, but each time?!?! That's just plain mean.

Curtis: I don't golf. I don't know why. I have spent my whole life near golf courses. I have two neighbors with "connections" with golf courses. Heck, I'm of Scottish descent (it took several attempts to convince Parker that I *was* registering my real name)!!! For some reason, every time I say "Sure, I'd love to golf with you -- the idea of drinking a lot of beer and destroying someone else's lawn with a lethal weapon while driving around in a golf cart blaring Metallica sounds like a great idea!", they stop inviting me. That said, I'm still up for lawn destruction, especially if it involves Ed's unlimited supply of beer.

Now, if you think I'm joking, you're wrong. Ed, Curtis, warm up for a long weekend this winter in AZ. Bring beer and subs (I have a 20-39 PC+ and soon to be PB2-Ultra we could test). Actually, with some prying, we could probably get all the subs we need from locals here. We'll drag the subs into the middle of the freaking desert for testing, and ourselves to the links. Hey, we could test subs on the links! That would rock. Again, I'm serious. Figure out a weekend. I may even try to golf.

-Robb
 

Rick Hilst

Grip
Joined
Oct 26, 2003
Messages
16
Ed's response to you was harsh, but I'd probably respond the same way.
I went back and re-read my original post. My choice of words was very poor and Ed had a legitimate right to be upset with them. It was not my intent but I could see how Ed could have reacted very strongly. I'm not condoning his attack on my character but I am taking responsibility for wording things poorly and instigating his strong response.

I am very sorry that I played a major role in undermining this effort. My intent was to do the opposite. I would have been glad to contribute time and effort to make it as good as it could be.

Ed's offer was indeed very generous.

This will be my last post. I am dropping the matter.
 

Mike Sloan

Second Unit
Joined
May 18, 2002
Messages
456
Edward J M,
You are a highly respected member on this forum and a hate to see you respond to these statements. Sometimes the most powerful response is silence.

Mike Sloan
 

EdS

Agent
Joined
Jul 28, 2000
Messages
25
Just in case TanT is still watching this thread, I was just at the AVS forum and they are still advertising a special for the HSU VTR-3R (rosewood) for $849.
 

Jimmy Michigan

Auditioning
Joined
Jun 11, 2002
Messages
5
This is really too bad, terrible even.

I had been very much interested in seeing the results of Ed's testings; but let's face it, without Rick Hilst's name being associated with it, what's the point? That's like a peanut butter sandwich without the peanut butter ... or the bread. Rick considers himself to be an expert in a number of areas, and believe me, so do I.

Rick, you contributed about as much to this thread as I just did. Please understand that I don't want my name associated with this thread.
 

Edward J M

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Messages
2,031
It is a Thanksgiving tradition for me to reflect on the past year's events in my life, both good and bad. My public argument with Rick was a low for me, both personally and professionally, and I regret it happened.

I contacted Rick that holiday weekend and apologized for letting my temper get the better of me, instead of letting cooler heads prevail. As far as I'm concerned, Rick is welcome here anytime.

This forum is what we make of it - we have a collective obligation to maintain high standards of personal and professional conduct, and there's nothing saying we can't all overcome a bumpy start with an olive branch and a handshake.

Holiday Cheers,

Ed

:)
 

Parker Clack

Schizophrenic Man
Moderator
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jun 30, 1997
Messages
12,228
Location
Kansas City, MO
Real Name
Parker
Ed and Rick I am glad to see that you both have handled this like professionals and gentlemen.

Ed:

I hope that you indeed get this done. It is something that has needed to be done for a long time. If you do decide to go about doing this comparison (when all parties can agree on how/what/when/where) I would be more than happy to host any pictures/results, etc. on HTF.

Also, maybe you could get together with other members, vendors, etc. via email together and then get this done without any forum in particular knowing about it and then post the results when done.


Rob:

(it took several attempts to convince Parker that I *was* registering my real name)
That would have been Ron that you had to convince. I don't approve the usernames around the place. I just make it possible for the forum to be up and running.


Parker
 

Roger Q

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Nov 17, 2003
Messages
60
If the showdown/comparison does occur, which I hope it does, I would find it interesting if a couple of other lesser (but still decent) subs were thrown into the mix.

My hypotheses are:
1) The subwoofers that fall into the 'best' category, e.g. SVS, Hsu, etc. will be materially better than the 'better' or 'good' subs. It may not be an order of magnitude, but it a diffent class by themselves in terms of performance.
2) The 'best' will not be materially different. This assumes that comparable speakers with similar prices (without a big chunk of the price going toward the wood/finish, e.g. if you want a ~$1K SVS sub, use a PB2-isd rather than a PB1-Plus).
3) Readers will determine that as long as they pick a category of subs, the purchase decision will probably be determined by which looks better to them and size restrictions.

Having good comparable tests will go a long way towards giving readers a sense of value among various subs. Then people can decide which they 'perfer.' After all, people don't always buy the best car or house -- they buy the one they prefer. They just want to know they are getting good/reasonable value.
 

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