HSU-VTF3 vs Velo CHT-15 - Results!

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by James Bergeron, Aug 18, 2002.

  1. James Bergeron

    James Bergeron Supporting Actor

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    Ok guys & gals, I have the numbers for you from the shootout.
    Things to keep in mind:
    Velodyne CHT-15 approx price: $1000 CDN or $640USD (can be HAD much cheaper from retailers)
    HSU VTF-3 approx price: $1500 CDN or $849 USD (maybe some negotiations possibly from av123)
    Some observations:
    We had 4 guys, Sean, Keith, Henning and myself. We listened to some music and a few movies. We then took the measurements, we spent about 1-2 hours with the subs playing around and such. We got them on a fairly level playing field, they were side by each in the corner of my room. We took measurements both at the seating position about 13' from the subs and from 1 meter away.
    From this exercise I was pleasantly surprised to see my room doesn't really add any crazy nulls or peaks to my sound, EXCELLENT!
    What the boys said:
    Well after some listening we commented and got the following (guys correct me if I misquote you, if I do it's not intentional):
    Henning: Can't really tell much difference with the movies but the HSU seemed tighter (Faster) for music. Don't think he wants one, he has a Paradigm Servo-15 (would have been an interesting comparison as well!)
    Keith: Heard lots of difference, the Velodyne seemed more chesty and the HSU seemed to be flatter across the board (read smoother). Wants one now (currently has an older Energy that isn't in the same league)
    Sean: Sean didn't comment to much, but I'm sure he finds his faster for music. Sean chime in if you wish.
    Myself: I also did find the HSU a TAD better for music, honestly I couldn't tell that much of a difference it wasn't night and day. For movies, I couldn't tell any difference, maybe if we switched back and forth quickly.
    Ok the numbers:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    @ Seat Db
    HzCHT-15 VTF-3
    106676.5
    156778
    186576
    207776
    227776
    257777
    287778
    307988
    359290
    409387
    5010091
    559792
    6010398
    6510399
    709798
    1 Meter Db
    HzCHT-15 VTF-3
    107477
    157590
    188797
    208796
    229395
    259998
    289997
    30101100
    3510498
    40111104
    50112105
    55113104
    60111104
    65110105
    70107102
    Observations about the Numbers:
    Keith's comments actually seem to come through correctly from the numbers. The VTF-3 is flatter across the board, all the way down to 10hz @ the Seat, and 15Hz flat from 1 meter. The CHT-15 drops off around 20Hz rather sharply. The VTF-3 seems to have a steady climb up, where as the CHT-15 spikes up at 35hz and continues on from there. The CHT has the upper hand on output 35hz & up. They are rather close from 35Hz down with the upper hand going to the VTF-3 from 18Hz on down. From 1 Meter the HSU seemed to really pack a punch down low, but in the room it was essentially a tie.
    My conclusions:
    Would I upgrade to the VTF-3 from my Velo? Nope, not me the extra cost isn't worth the minor difference in real world movies listening in my books. It is VERY close in this respect, both pressurize the room VERY well, both go low really well, neither seemed boomy or bloated.
    Would I "Trade" my velo for the HSU, sure if it didn't cost me anything.
    Seems like the CHT-15 is a great BANG for the BUCK subwoofer if your looking for quality bass on a budget.
    The HSU is cleaner down low and for music has the upper hand with it's 12" woof providing a faster response time. If you have the extra $$$ go for it!
    It will be interesting to see what the 25-31pc sounds like in my room, we will hopefully get numbers for it soon.
    Flame away folks! I'm sure once the SVS numbers are up, people will go ballistic!
    Edit:
    Here are the RS Meter adjusted figures.
    Freq in HzCHT-15 @ Seat Db
    1086.597
    158394
    1877.588.5
    2084.583.5
    2283.582.5
    258282
    288182
    308291
    3594.592.5
    4095.589.5
    50101.592.5
    5598.593.5
    60104.599.5
    65104.5100.5
    7098.599.5
    Freq in HzCHT-15 Db
    1094.597.5
    1591106
    1899.5109.5
    2094.5103.5
    2299.5101.5
    25104103
    28 103101
    30104103
    35106.5100.5
    40113.5106.5
    50113.5106.5
    55114.5105.5
    60112.5105.5
    65111.5106.5
    70108.5103.5
    And charts.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  2. steve nn

    steve nn Cinematographer

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    James I am so glad you were able to do this. I have given a lot of thought on this subject. I just could not figure how some of the other subs could be so much better than the Velo. "Knowing how the Velo does for me". My hat is off to you for stepping up to the plate. Like I said I was getting ready for a DIY sub project and after reading what you were planing this weekend and your thoughts, I just said the heck with it and went and bought a second Velo for $375 here in Oregon on Friday. I know I am very impatient. It was a demo but still comes with the original warranty. I was going to post Saturday but decided, mmm maybe I better wait until you post. I played around with placement and decided on stacking. Incredible! This configuration does it for me. It was quit a challenge to get my wife to go with this. You know what one can do. You know that scene on Crocidial-Dunde when Hogan pulls out his big Bayou and says " Why that ain't know Knife". This is your thread so I will exit. Thanks James. I spent $375 instead of $600--$1200 and I consider this obsession with bass over. Well the need to buy? I had plenty and now I have more than plenty SPL and good LFE.[​IMG]
     
  3. John Geelan

    John Geelan Screenwriter

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    I have the CHT-12 and it is excellent for movies. I think the Velo CHT line is an wonderful subwoofer bargain for newbies who want a little more oomph in their HT's.

    JohnG

    subs:
    Velo CHT-12
    SVS 25-31CS+
     
  4. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    Could you explain in a little more detail how you took the measurements. Not so much the actual physical activities. But what generated the tones, how was the volume level decided upon, etc.

    Also, you were using a RS meter correct? Do those graphs reflect raw data, or have you applied the appropriate corrections?
     
  5. Tom Vodhanel

    Tom Vodhanel Cinematographer

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    >>>Flame away folks!
     
  6. Sean D

    Sean D Stunt Coordinator

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    First of all, I'd like to say thanks to James for the good afternoon and great hospitality. Great job on the room as well James, very nice. It was also nice to meet Keith and Henning as well, good guys.
    I'll start off by saying that the Velo is a very nice sub. Definately not a slouch.
    The test tone disc that James had was a nice little tool. I believe they were pink noise tones(correct me if I'm wrong James) from 10hz-70hz.
    In retrospect I think that perhaps a few variables in our testing could have been different. As Tom mentions , perhaps measuring up into the 100hz or so range might have added some more info. As well, I think that perhaps a tripod would have been more useful for accurate measurements with IDENTICAL placement, during the test tone measurements as well as calibration. James already had the measurements for his sub finished before I got there.In retrospect I feel that perhaps if we had performed the calibrations and measurements from the exact same spot with a tripod it would have been more accurate.I also wonder how much of a difference the actual sub positions would play in the final numbers. The Velo was approc. 6-8 inches from the long wall and the VTF-3 was beside the Velo, approx. 24-30 inches from the wall whether or not that would play a big difference I'm not sure.
    I don't really think we played enough music, a few sections from "The Blue Man Group" was not really enough to get a decent idea of how these two perform for music.

    It was a good afternoon and I look forward to getting together with these guys again sometime.
     
  7. James Bergeron

    James Bergeron Supporting Actor

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    Ok to answer a few questions, I didn't put in the corrected numbers. I believe they are like +3-4db depending on the range correct? Send me a list and I'll redo the graphs with them, that should be simple enough.

    The reason I stopped at 70Hz was so that my speakers did not become a factor. I did not disconnect my speakers for this testing (as that would be a real pain) and my crossover on my receiver is fixed at 80Hz. My speakers would start to become a serious factor at 80hz.

    As far as the 20Hz dip, I'm not sure what's with that, maybe that is the adjusted numbers thing, but I don't think the meter is that far off is it? Actually I just did a search for those corrected numbers. I'll update the graphs / add in the corrected graph it should be better. As far as test tones I used a CD that I created with the test tone generating software, it was pure sine wave tones.

    About using a tripod I suppose we could have, would it have made a huge difference? I doubt it. We measured roughly from the same area (Very close) and when moving around the room with my meter from time to time, I haven't really noticed a huge fluctuation in measurements.

    Ok I'll do those adjustments right now and post them.
     
  8. James Bergeron

    James Bergeron Supporting Actor

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    The adjusted numbers are much flatter! Very nice, sorry I forgot to do those in the first place.
    There is still a dip at the seats, but it is less noticeable now.
    I agree with Sean, more time to play music may have been good. Some Diana Krall (there is some really good quick bass notes in that) as well as some other varieties.
    Maybe we can get the SVS the VTF and the Velo together and do it all again?? Just a measurement / music view rather than movies. I don't see much point in the movie testing now, they were VERY close in this regard.
    Tom are you willing to ship us a pci for testing? [​IMG] Or maybe if you know someone in the Ottawa area with one.
    I don't really expect "flames" per se but I expected some skeptics with so much hype around!
    Dustin: Almost forgot about your questions. The volume level was "00" on my denon 4800. I calibrated both subs to 75Db with the test tones from the seating area. And ran them at "reference" for the testing.
     
  9. felix_suwarno

    felix_suwarno Screenwriter

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    thanks to all people who did the shootout from the bottom of my heart. seriously.
     
  10. Geoff L

    Geoff L Screenwriter

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    What is the test room size?
    LxWxH please...
    I wou;d agree with what others and you have mentioned:::
    Next time, if their is another test, "identical placment" for each sub would be more accurate IMO. Also a tripode would be a nice advantage, as no movement or body interfearence would be present. Will this make a big differance, probley nothing massive, but the more accurate everything is done the more fair the test should/would be.
    Would these things make a big diffrance, NO most likely not, but the more accurate everthing is done the more "accurate the results".
    I own neither of the subs tested and favor neither. Nice of you guys to put the time and effort into this as it is definitly time consuming to do this type of testing & sub measuring. And I am certain it makes the CHT-Velo boys smile[​IMG]
    Regards
    Geoff
     
  11. Craig_Kg

    Craig_Kg Supporting Actor

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    You could have connected the CD player output to the .1 input on yor receiver (or just connected the sub input directly to the CD player) to send the signal directly to the sub without getting the mains involved.
    Just a thought for next time [​IMG].
    BTW That's a nice room response you have there!
     
  12. James Bergeron

    James Bergeron Supporting Actor

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    Geoff: The room is about 11' x 21' x 7.5'

    Craig: If I connected my cd player direct to the sub, I wouldn't have a volume control, IE I wouldn't really know from what point I am measuring. I tried connecting the cd-player to my external ins on my receiver but that didn't seem to work for some reason. I could try that again as I only played with it for a few seconds.
     
  13. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

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    Thanks for the review, although I find it strange that the subwoofers had significant output at 10 Hz. Was there noticeable distortion?

    Also, did you try a Max SPL test to see which sub could go louder at various frequencies? That's usually used in comparing subwoofers for their output capability. I think those tests (especially below 30Hz) would show which sub has the real potential.
     
  14. Miles Abbey

    Miles Abbey Agent

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    James, I'm assumming you tested the vtf-3 in max extension mode? I think the vtf-3 sounds even better for music in max output mode. I think the difference in sound quality would have been greater if tested in max output mode.
     
  15. Sean D

    Sean D Stunt Coordinator

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    The VTF-3 was in max extension mode. At 10 hz....the sound was....crap.....yes on both subs. [​IMG]
     
  16. Tom Vodhanel

    Tom Vodhanel Cinematographer

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    Cool on the updated graphs...glad to be of help.

    1)showing up in a casual FR check at 10hz doesn't mean the subwoofer can generate "clean" output at 10hz---big difference.

    2)I have found the RS meter tends to "saturate" as the freqs drop. It is still fine for these kinds of tests...but if you had a calibrated lab mic...you might see some differences in FR checks compared to the RS meter.

    3)the tripod suggestion is nutz-on. There's just so much I take for granted these days...you HAVE to keep the mic as close to the same spot when level matching as possible. The RS meter is already going to induce variations and moving it even slightly would make them worse. Also, if possible try to position the mic as close to ear/head position as possible.

    4)Max SPL tests would be valuable...but max SPL/thd would be a little better I think.

    TV
     
  17. steve nn

    steve nn Cinematographer

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    45 minuets of replying and I lost it all. This sight needs more servers. Latter! Last two weeks have been a major pain.
     
  18. Geoff L

    Geoff L Screenwriter

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    Steve
    Yes, "been their done that", so don't feel alone! The traffic volume here is huge this time of day and drops happen.
    Yes very frustrating![​IMG]
    Regards
    Geoff
     
  19. Sean D

    Sean D Stunt Coordinator

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    Tom , how do you feel about sub position in relation to taking measurements? Should they be in the exact same spot or would side by side as in our testing be sufficient?
     
  20. Manuel Delaflor

    Manuel Delaflor Supporting Actor

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    Sean,
    I think the same position will be better, Im fairly familiar with testing using both the SPL Meter and a calibrated mic, and have found also that the SPL meter is more "picky" about the exact position of the speakers and its own position. Sometimes a single centimeter in the pointing of the mic will bring completely different results.
    But (and this is a big but), I have found that the problem belongs to high frequencies, apparently for bass tests the SPL Meter is more tolerant.
    Still, a slightly different position of the sub will excite different room modes, so the comparison is not entirely well done if the subs position is close but not the same.
    Now one can know if the position affects or no your specific readings, because probably your room is "forgiving" with exact localization.
    Anyway, its a little early in here, perhaps Im talking nonsense!
    [​IMG]
     

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