Hsu VTF-2 vs. SVS 25-31CS (1 Viewer)

[David_Rivshin]

Since the model subwoofer I was planning on getting has been discontinued while I wasn't looking, I'm back to square one in that search... I've come to what I think are the best two options I have:
Hsu VTF-2
SVS 25-31CS + cheap plate amp + some woodworking
They are both in the same price range, although the SVS would be abit more expensive if I can't manage to sneak a B-stock. Since I'm in an apartment (first floor with a garage under me, end unit, so only neighbor is directly above), I'm not planning on playing at reference level or probably anywhere much near However, being the perfectionist that I tend to be, I'd like good extension so I can feel those nice low notes.
For reference, here is what I'm planning on pairing the sub with:
JBL S38 mains
JBL S-Center
JBL S36 surrounds
Sony DA5ES (or maybe an Onkyo 797...)
Panasonic RP-56 DVD player
Sony CE775 SACD player
floorplan: http://www.eastwoodmanagement.com/loconebed.gif
entertainment center is at about the middle of the left wall, with couch opposite it, subwoofer would most likely be placed in the lower left hand corner, or perhaps alittle closer to the entertainment center.
So finally to my question: Is one better than the other on an absolute scale? And if the better one is the more expensive one, then is it subjectively likely to be worth the difference in cost?
BTW, does anyone have a graph of the VTF-2's frequency response? In max extension mode I've seen reference to 25Hz -1dB, but I have no idea what it's 20 or 22Hz level would be.
--
Dave

 

[Steve Zimmerman]

I don't think you'll be making a bad decision with either subwoofer choice. I will say that you will probably be able to find someone who owns the CS 25-31 who is looking to upgrade to the CS+ and would be willing to sell you the CS at or below the B-Stock price.

--Steve

 

[ColinM]

I'd keep looking at eBay or the for sale area on this site.

I can barely hear a 22hz tone at 80db, so I don't think I would spend any extra $$ for extension. The SV I have is accurate and smooth. I haven't heard the Hsu.

Are you going to be in the apt for a while?

It sounds like the HSU is for you. Have you seen the Adireaudio.com Rava?

Looks count, and it's a good looking sub.

 

[JerryW]

Colin, are you saying you can't feel lower tones (

 

[ColinM]

"I can barely hear...."

Feel is something else, but dude said that he's an apartment dweller.

You need it to be LOUD in the first place before you can really feel it. Unless you like to play nothing but test tones all day long....

Yeah, yeah, I know, sometimes you can feel it a bit at less than 80 db or so, but you can't get shoved around the room by SPL and keep the neighbors happy at the same time. Besides, his budget only allows for so much.

I was p.o'ed when I realised I shot $750 on a sub for a few seconds here and there of deep bass in movies. But it's with music that I got the best value. Hence my opinion of 'useable' bass.

USEABLE bass means - to me - the stuff you can hear. The rest is icing on the cake.

- CM

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Bass preferences are pretty personal. The majority of movies I watch don't have dinosaurs or explosions. And music is very important to me, even though I watch more movies in the HT than I watch/listen to music (in the HT).
It is not a mistake to get a HT sub what doesn't peel wallpaper at 16hz as long as you get a sub that matches your HT preferences.

 

[JerryW]

Well, he mentioned his only neighbor was above, so I figured he could get away with a little more bass than other apt dwellers.
If low bass isn't a concern, I'd go with the Adire Rava. It's more musically accurate, IMO, than the SVS or Hsu.
But, if I had to choose between the 2 listed subs, I'd go with the VTF-2... with it you can plug a port and get more of a sealed sub sound. If that's what you're after.
Michael, I feel it would be a mistake to not get a lower extension sub. Yes, IMO, a sub for HT that doesn't reproduce all the sound that's intended is an underachiever. But hey, I watch a lot of action flicks in my HT, so my views may not be shared by all.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Bass preferences are pretty personal. The majority of movies I watch don't have dinosaurs or explosions. And music is very important to me, even though I watch more movies in the HT than I watch/listen to music (in the HT).

Some of my favorite movies don't even trigger the "auto-on" of my subwoofer. One thing I did notice when I first got a sub that went strong to below 20Hz, though, is the greatly increased sense of ambience and space with classical recordings that manage to preserve much of the infrasonic "hall-sound" of a venue. Not "notes" from the instruments, but the natural "sound" of a large hall which cue your brain that you're in a really big place.

 

[Bhagi Katbamna]

One thing I did notice when I first got a sub that went strong to below 20Hz, though, is the greatly increased sense of ambience and space with classical recordings that manage to preserve much of the infrasonic "hall-sound" of a venue. Not "notes" from the instruments, but the natural "sound" of a large hall which cue your brain that you're in a really big place.

Not to mention the sound of the air-conditioning system or subway trains.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Cowboy Junkies.

 

[ColinM]

Delicate Sound of Thunder

 

[David_Rivshin]

Steve, Colin,
I will definate keep a look out for any VTF-2's or SVS's for sale, might just be my perfect solution
I did take a quick look at the Rava, but it spec'ed a -3dB point at 27Hz, which does not compete with the Hsu or SVS in my opinion (if you think otherwise, let me know )
Jerry,

HSU RESEARCH VTF-2 - 107.1 / 20hz~93dB 25hz~99dB (as per Nousaine's testing)

So basically that means -1dB at 25Hz, -7dB at 20Hz, when listening at normallevels? What is that 107.1 number, the max output in dB? Excuse yet more of inexperience, but what is F8 extension? Also, is there someplace I can get a copy of Nousaine's article, perhaps a back issue I can order? I'd be quite interested in reading it, but so far I've only seen references to it.
All,
Thanks for all the other info and opinions. Boy I love this forum
One thing that I forgot to mention before is that I do plan on using the system for alot of music as well as HT. I've seen in another thread that the VTF-2 was highly regarded for HT, seeming to imply that it wasn't as great for music. What are opinions of it's music performance; would the 25-31CS be that much better in that regard?
Thanks everyone
-- Dave

 

[ColinM]

On the 25-31
You can power a CS with an $80 receiver from Best Buy...giving the price edge to SV.
HSU - 0
SV - 1
Performance? Based on numbers alone, SV squeeks by.
HSU - 0
SV - 2
That's as far as the numbers on paper can take you. Now it's up to your ears and eyes. Some people don't like cylinder subs. I didn't, at first, but now I couldn't care less, I love the SV. Some people think the Hsu is ugly in it's own right.
As far as sound, you need to be the judge. I've never heard a Hsu, so I can't really say the SV's are better. I just know that I'll not be looking for any upgrade in the sub department for a long, long time.
Take advantage of the 45 day test SV offers. You'll be out about $25 - $40 in shipping, a dollar a day. Not a bad rental price for one of the best reviewed subs around.
- CM
PS - All of this info is from memory...sorry if I got the pricing wrong....
The 107.1 number is the average SPL over the range of frequencies.
I think F8 = In room numbers.
http://audioreview.com/reviews/Subwo...uct_7348.shtml
Good Luck

 

[Jack Gilvey]

So basically that means -1dB at 25Hz, -7dB at 20Hz, when listening at normallevels? What is that 107.1 number, the max output in dB?

Those numbers are not a frequency response, they are the max output at 10% distortion in his room (with the old amp and driver, I believe, they've both been upgraded).

 

[ColinM]

1 - The prices off of the website.

HSU = $499

SV = $669 for the powered, $369 for the non-powered plus $80 for the Rec. = $449.

2 - Numbers? I forget, but I thought the Hsu lost on max average spl and extension...hence my "all of this is from memory" disclaimer...

3 - 107.1db average spl from 20 - 93hz, right?

If you are pro-Hsu, note that I added a link to a site that HEAVILY recommends the Hsu.

- CM

 

[David_Rivshin]

Colin,
Actually I can get the latest update of the VTF-2 for $450 including shipping. On the same note the 25-31CS and 20-39CS both have $15 shipping charges from SVS, which I actually consider to be quite resonable. If I went the SVS route I would get a sub plate amp for $50-150, which would probably be a better match than an $80 reciever.
As for the numbers, it's hard to really compare the SVS to the VTF-2, since the same set of numbers for each is hard to find. The frequency response graph on SVS's site is great, but specifies in relative dB, instead of absolute (vs human sensitivity), so I don't know it's max output at say 20 and 25Hz. Whereas I have some numbers for the VTF-2 in terms of max output at those frequencies, I don't know the relative output drop at 20Hz vs the 20-80Hz max or average.
I just wish Tom Nousaine would do a comparison with the VTF-2, Rava, 25-31CS and 20-39CS so we can compare apples to apples.... Hey Tom, ya listening? How about another poor-man's subwoofer shootout?
BTW, for those interested it looks like I found a copy of Tom's original comparison that included the VTF-2: http://members.iinet.net.au/~colinf/...2%20Review.PDF
-- Dave

 

[Jack Gilvey]

I've seen the Hsu available for $425 or so in various posts.
And I'm merely "pro-facts".

 

[ling_w]

That's $425 including shipping. Good deal if you live in Katmandu or Addis-Ababa.

You also have to compare apple to apple. You can't go out and get a $80 receiver that gets a 35wpc and clips at 36 watt for $80. If you want to get a totally junk receiver, you still have to get one of comparable power, meaning 150 real watts into 4ohm.

 

[ColinM]

Right. Apples for $499 (or whatever) to oranges for $499 (or whatever).
I mentioned the price of the powered SV.
I will now STFU, please forget my post.

 

[JerryW]

Ling has a good point. The KLH is really not ideal for an SVS sub. The receiver's ratings are:
100W @8ohms at 1KHz w/ 5% THD
The real world ratings, for lower frequency material is about 25-30W at